Epsom College Murder Suicide

[PleaseStopSayingHuBbY]

I'm shocked but not surprised. This world is depressing and scary for women.

I can’t stop thinking about this and now the order of events is coming into my head. The trauma for the family, friends but also the emergency services involved in this.

I know someone who looks just like Emma and I keep getting these flashes of her in my mind. DH didn’t want to talk about it he said I need to stop thinking about it, but I can’t.

I can’t stop thinking about it either. Can’t bear to think of how frightened the little girl must have been. I think because my DD is the same age I imagine her going through it. How could anyone do that to their own small, defenceless child?

It was a big house. One can only hope against hope that the child was away from the noise of any argument and fast asleep.

I do hope so, goodbyestranger.

I imagine he reported her for a slap because a) he thought she was going to report him for much, much worse and b) because he thought it would destroy her career. She continued to do well with her career, far outshining him,, so the police obviously didn't think he had a legitimate complaint. It was a "shut the fuck up or I'll destroy you" move on his part.

That’s made me cry. I’m so, so sorry that happened to you. And so glad that posting is helping you.

I hate this - are people now going to suggest that she was the bully and this poor man just snapped? So depressing.

It’s a tired trope. Regular guy snaps after shrew of a woman goads him
utter nonsense. If one is on a heated argument you reach for the insults not a rifle
He is the perpetrator he is responsible its loathsome to blame this on the two deceased victims

I feel the same way.

Some if the posts about the slap sound like people are saying that she was slightly aggressive, but he was worse. They may not mean it that way, but that's how it's coming across.

If anything the slap and subsequent police report bolster the idea that he was abusive, both physically and emotionally and that she was very much the victim.

It's not evidence of a volatile relationship, but of an abusive one on his part.

I think you need to understand domestic abuse a bit better than you seem to here. I find all of your posts pretty reprehensible, particularly as you say you have been in a violent relationship.

This is not a "both sides" situation and it's awful that you would suggest it is.

Of course. If she slapped him then it’s because he abused her. If she didn’t slap him then he made it up - abusing her. Either way, reporting her for it was power and control, an attempt to keep her in her place. Abuse. All around abuse which ended in her death. I just wish that hadn’t been reported because it will cast doubt into some people’s minds who want to make excuses for this awful man and also it was private

Likely by reporting her alleged assault he’s exerted power,knowing it potentially affects her career,reputation and DBS.

It is all patterns, every single time.

Abusive people always play the victim. I've seen it time and time again, in my marriage (hello stbxh, who may well be stalking me again on mumsnet...), and in my friend's marriages.

They push and push, verbally or physically, until you can't take any more. If you snap back, they immediately go into victim mode. "How dare you criticise me?!".

They report to the police, social services etc, and the real victim is left totally confused, gaslit, terrified of reacting next time.

And it happens to the strongest of people, because they are the ones who cope for years and years, making excuses to themselves about why their partner is behaving like that.

I do think this should be taught in school, as a matter of course.

@knittingaddict even when I literally say “It doesn’t justify him murdering her or their child”?

and I find it reprehensible that you think I don’t understand domestic abuse yet acknowledge that I have experienced domestic abuse (I also find what you wrote very dismissive of my own domestic abuse situation, so thanks for that). What makes you think that? Because I believe there is a possibility that she could have slapped him based on my own personal domestic abuse system? In the need for seeing things from all sides i state it could have been a mutually violent relationship OR it could have been a power play on his part. The one time she hit him back and he held it over her and phoned the police, even though he then tried to renegade on it and said it was a trivial issue.

Did he panic what she might tell the police

Seriously ?

What and thought murdering his own daughter and wife would solve this the fear they must have felt he would have seen the fear in his daughters eyes but yes he was worried what she might tell the police 🙄

he was a violent men who went to the extreme he didn’t care what anyone thought only he mattered

I hope people don’t think I’m personally flaunting this fact or believe that I think she was the bully, I was just trying to give an update on this case and went back a few pages and couldn’t see it had been mentioned.

If anything the slap and subsequent police report bolster the idea that he was abusive, both physically and emotionally and that she was very much the victim.

I agree.

He reported a slap (possibly spuriously) as a way of saying "I can lose you your job; I can destroy your public reputation; if you try to leave me I will be the one awarded sole custody of our child - you'll be lucky to get supervised access.
Know your place woman."

And when he'd done that, he tried to withdraw the complaint (because let's face it - it made him look an *rse, didn't it?) but the police have to act on a complaint of domestic violence no matter how ridiculous it might seem, and so there is a record of it. A record that should never have seen the light of day, IMO, because it was irrelevant to this butchery of a helpless woman and child.

So a woman who was either heavily pregnant or who had recently given birth was dragged into the police station during the night and made to give an account of the incident.

I wonder if the police were more worried about his behaviour and were trying to make sure that Emma was safe - and if she was too frightened and intimidated by him, too worried about her job and her baby, to speak against him.

Or maybe she really did blame herself. These gaslighting men, as @DorritLittle said earlier, really do make their wives and partners feel that they are literally losing their minds and don't even know which way is up.

SaturdayNoon so sorry you’ve had to go through this. I really agree it should be a topic taught in schools. It looks like it is happening via charities- not the same as regular classes, but Women's Aid has a project going in to schools for 4-18 year olds
www.womensaid.org.uk/what-we-do/education-and-public-awareness/expect-respect/
Their stickers should be put up in every toilet door in schools and workplaces and public toilets too so women know there’s someone to call.

Womens Aid also say that it’s never too early or too late to call them to talk about a relationship that you’re worried about, for you or someone else so I hope everyone who might need that will keep that option in their mind.

to everyone on the thread with their own reasons for joining it, and to the lurkers .

I have personal experience of domestic abuse in my immediate family. We drove my daughter and her children to the refuge. I understand very clearly how these men operate.

You are still trying to "both sides" this. It's offensive in the light of two innocent victims.

I would highly recommend the Freedom Course to better understand your own abuse and the abuse of other women.

I'm so sorry.

The number of women on this thread who have experienced first or second-hand the horrors of domestic violence, and the manipulative, twisted, controlling behaviour of narcissistic men who present a facade of being the perfect husband/ father, but once that front door closes they reveal themselves as brutal tyrants. It's heartbreaking and horrifying - and STILL governments and powerful organisations refuse to protect women and children.

@SnottyLottie there's a lot of work out there on what some people assume are 'mutually violent' relationships, if you seek it out you might better understand why what you are writing is coming across so badly.

I just wanted to correct something that has come up in a couple of posts. If you are in an abusive relationship, you don't have to be ready to leave before you call Women's Aid or any other domestic abuse support organisation. All these organisations offer an outreach service and will support you with safety planning and other emotional/practical support, over the phone or face-to-face.

@knittingaddict how am I taking both sides? I am acknowledging the police report that he accused her of slapping him. She might have slapped him, she may have not. There may be justified reasons for this, they may not be, we will never know. It is a fact that this report was made. We are only speculating that he abused her or she abused him. But I do think we need to get out of this mindset of people having to be perfect victims. People are dismissing that she couldn’t have possibly hit him. As if her actually slapping him does actually justify him murdering her? Maybe if we as a society can say “yeah there’s a possibility that she hit him” and she totally didn’t deserve any violence she received in kind or to be murdered in spite of this, women wouldn’t be so scared coming forward for help.

Again, this is my personal experience. I hit back and was made to feel like an abuser despite the severe abuse I received. He would threaten to phone the police on me, told one of his friends that I had hit him and was violent towards him. It stopped me getting help. I find it very tellingly that she phoned her family rather than phoning the police when it dawned on her what was happening. Again, why was this? Was she too scared to phone the police because she knew she was or was seen as an imperfect victim?

I think once he shot his seven year old daughter, he outed himself as the abusive one. He was the abuser. He murdered his wife and daughter.