Tyre Nichols

[KenAdams]

The bodycam footage has been released.

I'm in two minds about whether to watch it or not. I don't think I'll ever get the George Floyd one out of my head.

What is the problem with male police officers? Racism, violent or misogynistic tendencies (the latter more specific to other recent cases). I just don't know. And I don't know how the police can build back trust on either side of the Atlantic.

Black police officers absolutely can be racist but that isn’t what I asked you is it?

You’ve an awful lot to say on this thread but nothing about the actual case being discussed. I see you.

I watched it..or at least started to. Turned off when he started crying for his mum.

I just don’t understand why the police think they can do this. They don’t even have the motivation of racism since they are black themselves.

Poor man. Poor mother.

You’ve an awful lot to say on this thread but nothing about the actual case being discussed. I see you

Be specific? What do you see? What, do you want to call me a racist simply because I disagree with your opinion?

I do care about police brutality and I never will ‘back the blue’. But I also don’t care to see police totally defunded but want to see positive solutions.

Body cams were one very positive solution. What about others? I say abolishing police unions (public sector should not have unions) perhaps a special divisions for mental health cases (a lot of unarmed shootings happen to people with mental health issues).

I disagree about public sector not having unions.

While I don't in particular like police unions, public sector workers in general need someone to help them when they face allegations on their conduct. I know teachers, nurses and even a hospital porter who were rightly and wrongly accused of things.

While I don't in particular like police unions, public sector workers in general need someone to help them when they face allegations on their conduct. I know teachers, nurses and even a hospital porter who were rightly and wrongly accused of things

I am sorry I added the bit about public sector unions in general as it can derail, but the police union has been a particularly obstinate barrier to reform and has defended some of the worst practices. Ofc unions are tasked to defend their own instead of think about what is best for the public, so you see how it can be a problem

Its really reaching to say they had some sort of internalised racism when they live in a majority black city with a PD led by a black woman

@MintyFreshOne I am guessing that, unlike me, you have never lived in a large American city with a population that is majority black. If you had, you would know what a ridiculous statement that is.

It's not 'a reach'. It turns out now that these cops were part of a paramilitary-style unit called the Scorpions (which have now been disbanded). There is a long history in the US of these kinds of paramilitary police units committing all sorts of crimes and abuses (the equivalent of war crimes) against minority populations. And yes, black and Latino and Asian cops join these units, even though they are obviously racist, and then participate in racist activities. There are all sorts of psychological and self-interest reasons for this.

I understand it doesn't make sense to you, in your own world, but maybe listen to people who actually do live in those other worlds?
There are black and Latino people who voted for Trump, who was explicitly racist constantly. There are UK politicians, who are the children of immigrants, who make laws that would have made their own parents' immigration impossible. In the British Empire there were thousands of people who joined local militias to enforce colonial rule on their own people.

You seem to think that the mere presence of black people will make an institution or policy non-racist, that is really very naive.

you have never lived in a large American city with a population that is majority black. If you had, you would know what a ridiculous statement that is

What makes this ridiculous? Be specific.

It turns out now that these cops were part of a paramilitary-style unit called the Scorpions (which have now been disbanded). There is a long history in the US of these kinds of paramilitary police units committing all sorts of crimes and abuses (the equivalent of war crimes) against minority populations

Yes many municipalities have these units and they put military weapons and tactics in the hands of poorly trained and frankly incompetent cops. I think they are not appropriate, so wouldn’t a good solution be to disband them? Glad we agree

And yes, black and Latino and Asian cops join these units, even though they are obviously racist

Not obvious they are racist. If cartel members are Hispanic, does that mean any police action targeting cartels are racist? Clearly not!

You seem to think that the mere presence of black people will make an institution or policy non-racist, that is really very naive

I am saying that five black men beating another black man to death has nothing to do with racism, but a culture of entitlement to use violence, even where not appropriate. I see unchecked violence where you see racism.

You see it as racist because you appear to think that they are part of a inherently racist institution. Where is the racism in what they did? Is it simply the fact they were working as cops?

If you think the police are a racist institution, then you must think the effective solution is to defund the police? Interested to hear your solutions

Although I find it really odd you think that it is racism when you (perceive) people to vote against their interests. Not all immigrants think any and all immigration is ok— I am an immigrant, I don’t think it is ok to tolerate irregular arrivals for instance

I was specific about why it's ridiculous.

You disagree despite having no personal understanding of any of this. Why do you think your opinion is more valid than people who live there? Who have lived in similar cities? Who have personal experience with racist police?

The origins of American policing are in the slave patrols of the south and the urban police meant to repress immigrants, minorities and the poor, i.e. they were inherently racist institutions. Since then there have been endless studies showing racial disparities not only in police murders but in arrests, searches, assaults, raids, literally every aspect of policing. So it is not just 'my opinion' that police forces are institutionally racist. It is a reasonable conclusion based on hard data. It is also something that polls show 80-90% of black Americans believe to be the case.

I will honestly never understand why some people are so determined to not see racism, especially in places they don't know anything about.

So if you believe all of this (which I don’t), how do you solve the problem of police brutality? Genuinely interested

I agree entirely.

They KNEW they were being filmed & they KNEW it DIDN'T MATTER !!

I have no trust in the Police. This is from my experience (more than 1 time).
I am female. I have two children. They have ASD.
It's really hard to tell them to 'trust the Police, go to them if you have a problem'.
I don't believe that you're safe with the Police if you're black, female or disabled.

Once Racism, Sexism, Disablism, Homophobia etc becomes institutionalised
then decent workers leave / are forced out / have to 'join in' to survive. I have had experience working alongside the Police & there are some very hardworking & decent people. But, as an organisation it is not good. The IPCC are not good.
It's Toxic. (not just the..) the Met are toxic. Policing in the US is toxic too.

Easy to criticise & harder to fix. But it needs root & branch reform starting with the Complaints process. NO ONE should be 'above the law' esp the Police.

Well on the one hand, you can't 'solve' police brutality in a vacuum, as it is affected by all sorts of broader social problems. There is a huge level of racism in the US that feeds the disproportionate abuse of minority populations. There is a huge gun problem, as long as so much of the population is armed, the police will be even more armed, they will be constantly on alert and afraid, they will over-react to everything. There is a huge amount of deprivation and drug use, lack of health care, etc etc, which fuels the crime to begin with.

So I think if any progress can be made on those fronts (and I am very pessimistic about that) it will also help reduce police brutality.

Beyond that -- I understand why people don't like 'abolish the police' or 'defund the police', because to be fair those are misleading terms that give people the idea that there should just be no police at all.

But if you really look at what defund the police advocate -- and I recommend this article: www.brookings.edu/blog/how-we-rise/2021/05/19/7-myths-about-defunding-the-police-debunked/

They are all very common sense things. You don't completely defund the police, you just reduce their budgets so that instead of buying high-tech military equipment for cops, you spend the money on social workers and mental health care and drug treatment. You try to improve conditions in the community. Basically you try to reduce the need for so many interactions between police and civilians in the first place.

So it's not just minor reforms, it's a whole different approach to policing. You treat crime as a public health problem and you put major limitations on how the police can use force. In many cities the cops have fewer restrictions on the use of deadly force than soldiers have in a war zone, that is not right.

Also interesting that article talks about an issue debated on this thread:

"Research shows police officers that have at least two years of a college education are less likely to have misconduct complaints and less likely to use force to gain compliance. And, officers with only high school diplomas account for 75% of disciplinary problems."

This shows why it's so important to look at the data and not just have opinions based on our gut feelings or whatever. Because sure, it's easy to mock the idea that two years of community college will produce better cops, but that really does seem to be the case so maybe it's something we should do.

Or people assume that stop and search is a good idea but as that data shows in NYC 90% of people stopped were not committing any crime. So it's not actually that useful, it's just harassing the community.

I did literally write my dissertation on racism in the criminal justice system including the police. Admittedly in the U.K. not USA. But yes, I’ve seen similar data before based in the U.K..

and the stop and search data in the U.K. clearly demonstrates that a black person has a much higher chance of being stopped by the police, a much higher chance of being arrested for low level stuff, a much higher chance of being prosecuted, a much higher chance of not getting bail, higher chance of being found guilty and a higher chance of a lengthier sentence. I imagine the USA is just as bad.

So I think if any progress can be made on those fronts (and I am very pessimistic about that) it will also help reduce police brutality

I guess there’s a sense of fatalism here I don’t like.

But if you really look at what defund the police advocate -- and I recommend this article: www.brookings.edu/blog/how-we-rise/2021/05/19/7-myths-about-defunding-the-police-debunked/

This was interesting thx but it was very shallow on prescription. It had more to do with how society should change, not police.

They are all very common sense things. You don't completely defund the police, you just reduce their budgets so that instead of buying high-tech military equipment for cops

Agree this stuff shouldn’t be in police hands

you spend the money on social workers and mental health care and drug treatment

Social workers didn’t ask for this kind of job though … and the US has very few mental health institutions (thx Reagan!!!) so would support opening more,
probably need a specialised force to deal with mental health cases, since many of the unarmed dead were clearly mentally ill.

You try to improve conditions in the community

This takes too much time, and tbh you can do things in parallel. We shouldn’t have to wait for an ‘equitable’ society to stop police brutality, nor does it seem an absolute condition.

Basically you try to reduce the need for so many interactions between police and civilians in the first place

Yes

Although since this post it has come out that at least 3 of the 5 went to college.

Also there’s a sort of classicism here, that the type of people who go to college are less likely to use violent methods. Is this what people really think?

I watched it. I found it very difficult to understand what was going on.
Particularly at the beginning of the video… Is this how police in America routinely address people who are stopped for a traffic offence? "Get the f*k out of your car and lie down on the ground"?! Or was there some back story that is not being shown?

Looking at it from the other side, perhaps there should be a limit on how long one is permitted to be a police officer. We expect these people do deal with scumbags on a daily basis but also go around smiling and being polite to the general public. Is this realistic or even possible?

Also the fact that they were openly discussing how they were going to get their story straight... on camera!

Seems there was a personal angle:

www.nytimes.com/2023/02/07/us/tyre-nichols-photo-memphis-demetrius-haley.html