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Original poster

Tanks or no Tanks for Ukraine?

163 replies

Samedaysameshit · 20/01/2023 21:12

My view is yes but interested in what the opinion is out there?
What are we prepared to watch unfold in Ukraine? If Russia’s spring offensive works and they roll all the way to the Poland border what do we do then?

OP posts:
Horticultur · 21/01/2023 19:43

2023bebetter · 21/01/2023 19:14

I think we are on one by proxy. All the baddies against the Goodies.

Yes. I don’t know if good will always win though . The odds are against us as unfortunately he has a lot at his disposal and possibly even more than we are aware of. He seems like someone desperate for recognition and power

Greenshake · 21/01/2023 19:45

@Horticultur I made this exact point earlier. There is no reasoning here, as this is not someone following anything other than his own wants.

pigsinoodies · 21/01/2023 19:51

Honper · 21/01/2023 00:54

No they fucking won't. Putin's got no interest in that. He wasn't even that bothered about Ukraine until zelensky started arsing around with NATO. Russia will conclude the campaign by attrition, zelensky will bin off his neo Nazis and the donbas will get part carved up part conceded, everyone can save face and Russia will carry on doing what it needs to do with China, as long as we stay in our lane.

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No they fucking won't. Putin's got no interest in that. He wasn't even that bothered about Ukraine until zelensky started arsing around with NATO
**
But Zelensky was elected 5 years AFTER Russia invaded Ukrainian territory.

Horticultur · 21/01/2023 19:51

Greenshake · 21/01/2023 19:45

@Horticultur I made this exact point earlier. There is no reasoning here, as this is not someone following anything other than his own wants.

Anything we do will be twisted and used as the reason for escalation but doing nothing just opens up the way for him to make something up. We can’t win. There’s some agenda and I don’t know what the way out is 😞

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 21/01/2023 19:54

pigsinoodies · 21/01/2023 19:51

No they fucking won't. Putin's got no interest in that. He wasn't even that bothered about Ukraine until zelensky started arsing around with NATO
**
But Zelensky was elected 5 years AFTER Russia invaded Ukrainian territory.

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Shush, it upsets the tankies, shills and scum of the extreme left and right when you make inconvenient points like that.

And in answer to the OP, tanks. It's not even a question.

Greenshake · 21/01/2023 20:05

@Horticultur I hear you. It’s just so futile..and for what?

arnui · 21/01/2023 20:09

It will definitely end up in a World War if we ignore it and Putin carries on

Not the most academic level of discussion or detail here so I'm bowing out. Sorry to use this as example, but it's frustrating. My posts haven't even been addressed or refuted...

Greenshake · 21/01/2023 20:14

I am not sure this is the right forum for a purely academic discussion. I am happy to debate the tank thing with you if you like?

Greenshake · 21/01/2023 20:14

@arnui

travellinglighter · 21/01/2023 23:43

Horticultur · 21/01/2023 19:27

They are inept because there is no passion behind their cause. The men on the ground know it’s wrong, majority don’t want to be there they were most likely forced.
sending planes and tanks would be a temporary solution. It’s a shame there’s not a way to get to them and make them realise if they all say no then there’s no war if nobody will fight. Seems to be the mouthpiece high ranking officials driving it but hiding behind men they’ve forced.

There must be another way to get to them and get them out so putin has nobody to do his work

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They are so inept because they are poorly trained. This was true when I was in the army and remains true today. They tried to upgrade and train their forces to modern military tactics but they have failed and have reverted to the old style Zhukov plan of flattening targets with artillery and then conquering the rubble. Combine this with widespread corruption at all levels then you are looking at an army that can’t take on anything approaching a modern military force of even quarter of its size.

Hawkins001 · 22/01/2023 12:32

arnui · 21/01/2023 20:09

It will definitely end up in a World War if we ignore it and Putin carries on

Not the most academic level of discussion or detail here so I'm bowing out. Sorry to use this as example, but it's frustrating. My posts haven't even been addressed or refuted...

Personally I'd prefer your input and analysis, when possible I'll study your points

Fladdermus · 22/01/2023 12:42

There was a bloke on TV the other day, possibly Newsnight but can't be sure, who said the west needs to decide whether it wants Ukraine to win or Russia to not win. Because they're not the same. Currently we're supplying Ukraine with enough to stop Russia winning but not enough so they can win themselves. I thought he was right but what do we do then?

Original poster
Samedaysameshit · 22/01/2023 20:58

Fladdermus · 22/01/2023 12:42

There was a bloke on TV the other day, possibly Newsnight but can't be sure, who said the west needs to decide whether it wants Ukraine to win or Russia to not win. Because they're not the same. Currently we're supplying Ukraine with enough to stop Russia winning but not enough so they can win themselves. I thought he was right but what do we do then?

Yes I’ve heard that too.
The Americans don’t want Russia to actually lose as they are probably worried about what they may do in desperation.
I think the calculation is to keep Ukraine in the fight long enough for the war to become unsustainable for Russia and force them to the negotiating table.
They will then put pressure on Ukraine to give up some territory so Russia can save face.

OP posts:
Original poster
Samedaysameshit · 25/01/2023 17:14

So it’s a yes.

OP posts:
heldinadream · 25/01/2023 17:20

Samedaysameshit · 25/01/2023 17:14

So it’s a yes.

Yes I thought it would be. I'm glad and sad at the same time. Very glad that we are supporting Ukraine and doing our best to take Putin down, very sad at the state the world is in and that it's necessary.
115 years after the end of WW1 and 83 years after the beginning of WW3. Feels almost we are in that same twilight zone that they were in back in the 1920s.

MagicFox · 25/01/2023 17:27

@heldinadream yes, let's hope we've learned from history and don't make the same mistake again

Greenshake · 25/01/2023 17:53

heldinadream · 25/01/2023 17:20

Yes I thought it would be. I'm glad and sad at the same time. Very glad that we are supporting Ukraine and doing our best to take Putin down, very sad at the state the world is in and that it's necessary.
115 years after the end of WW1 and 83 years after the beginning of WW3. Feels almost we are in that same twilight zone that they were in back in the 1920s.

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Perfectly put.

heldinadream · 25/01/2023 18:04

Whoops Freudian slip obviously WW2 not 3. Sorry.

Alexandra2001 · 25/01/2023 18:07

Greenshake · 21/01/2023 19:33

I agree again, we are all in this terrible situation and it is of none of our making.

We did plenty to encourage Putin, took his money for property and even funding the tory party..., allowed him to dictate the result of the Brexit vote, did nothing over Georgia and then Crimea and were silent when he murdered dissidents in the UK.

We should send more challngers of course (if we actually had any ammunition) and medium range missile systems too, we are always behind the curve.

Putin needs to be forced to withdraw and then Russia given a way back to the European fold without Putin in charge.

Greenshake · 25/01/2023 18:10

Sorry but I have to take issue with that. There are serious questions to answer but we did not encourage him in respect of Ukraine. Your view on Russia is far too simplistic as well.

Alexandra2001 · 25/01/2023 19:17

We carried on supporting Putin and his backers when he invaded Georgia and Crimea... you don't think that encouraged him to believe he could operate in Ukraine unopposed?

Much like the withdraw of forces from the Falklands encouraged Argentinian... which led to L. Carrington resigning because he knew he got it wrong.

Russia, one day will need to come back from wide ranging but not total, international isolation, just as German & Japan did after WW2... Russia withdrawing from Ukraine and Putin being removed aids this... Russia is a European country with a vast Nuclear arsenal, it is not N.Korea, we will eventually need dialogue but only until, at the very least, back to pre Feb 21 border, if thats acceptable to the Ukrainians.

notimagain · 25/01/2023 19:55

Much like the withdraw of forces from the Falklands encouraged Argentinian... which led to L. Carrington resigning because he knew he got it wrong.

Just to avoid anybody getting confused about the sequence of events in 82 I guess you mean the announcement that HMS Endurance was going to be withdrawn, not that forces had already been withdrawn?

HMS Endurance was still in theatre during the conflict and took part in some of the action around South Georgia. The other long term UK Forces presence down on the islands, Naval party 8901, was also very much present on the day of the invasion, in the thick of it defending Government House.

I do however agree the Foreign Office screwed up the diplomacy right royally.

Greenshake · 25/01/2023 20:08

@Alexandra2001 i think you are confusing a failure or omission to act with encouragement. They are very different concepts.

Griff123 · 25/01/2023 20:26

@Hawkins001 "did anyone learn from history". What history? It's a very subjective thing. Supporting a country that is defending its own borders against an aggressive invader is not wrong.

Alexandra2001 · 25/01/2023 20:53

Greenshake · 25/01/2023 20:08

@Alexandra2001 i think you are confusing a failure or omission to act with encouragement. They are very different concepts.

I am not confusing anything at all but thankyou.

If you think the West acted properly and with due diligence toward Russia after Georgia, Crimea and the shooting down of MH17 thats up you but if like different wording, there is nothing we did to suggest to Putin, we would come to Ukraine's aid....

Much like German reliance on gas, there is much we should have all done very differently, it suited us not too.