Tanks or no Tanks for Ukraine?

[Samedaysameshit]

My view is yes but interested in what the opinion is out there?
What are we prepared to watch unfold in Ukraine? If Russia’s spring offensive works and they roll all the way to the Poland border what do we do then?

If this is a serious question, because it would start WW3.
We are in NATO and therefore the US and many other countries would get involved immediately if we were attacked. That means that two of the biggest nuclear and military superpowers (at least, assuming China stays out of it) at war. It would be a disaster for the whole world.

These aren’t T-72’s we are supplying. These are third generation tanks that are more accurate, more lethal and much better protected than the T-72’s they will face. I’m not saying they are impervious to enemy fire but one challenger 2 has survived 70 direct hits from an rpg, the main anti tank weapon of the Russian infantry.

If that's the case, then why are we basically fighting proxy wars ?

@travellinglighter
Challengers have faced these tanks before in Iraq and not a single tank was lost due to enemy fire.

Yes, well Iraq was an enemy that

• The US was invading, and also,
• Decided to bury their entire Air Force in the sand instead of use them

The challengers are a generation ahead of the T-72’s the Russians can deploy.
They are old tech today. The Russians won’t be sending tanks to fight our tanks, they will be sending their Night Hunter Mi-28NM attack helicopters which are essentially flying tanks and can take out a tank in one shot….from five miles away. They have 16 of these missiles plus 2 laser guided missiles with a range of 9 miles. Tanks don’t stand a chance.

RPGs are not Russias main anti-tank weapon. 🤣

The Ukrainians would not use tanks like the Russians do.
They would be used with infantry support to clear the guys hiding in bushes with anti tank weapons plus air support.
Tanks in an offensive operation are mainly used as mobile artillery.
The challenger tank, at least front on will take many direct hits from a T72. Not that the T 72 would get a shot off.
In Iraq there were 30 T72 tanks dug in along a high ridge and the Abrams 1 tanks shot all of them while advancing at 20 mph before they were even in range of the T72’s.
So in answer to you point, no they would not just be adding to the tank graveyard.

Tanks.

No they have probably run out of them.
probably using bricks now.

Small problem: how will there be air support when Ukraine’s airforce is badly outnumbered and outgunned? They can only provide sporadic support to front lines, and it’s not beyond Russias capability to dominate the skies on any front line battle.

Its not a case of challenger vs T72, it’s challenger vs night hunter.

Yes, yes Iraq 2003- but that’s not a good comparison in terms of who and what is coming to the battle. Russia doesn’t fight like the Iraqis did- for one they’re not literally burying their entire Air Force….like squirrels burying nuts.

We should be sending aircraft, not tanks.

It’s this kind of superior over-confidence & ignorance of the enemy that leads to young men and women coming home in body bags. Some of whom are teenagers.

I’m interested in your thoughts on how the ‘west’ should respond to the situation in Ukraine?
Are you of the opinion we should look away and pretend it’s not happening?

But, I’m sure the Defence contractors are chomping at the bit to get their new Chobham Dorchester armour tested in battlefield conditions. So, that would probably be the real reason why we are sending so few tanks to Ukraine. 14 are not enough to make a real difference imho.

What innocent men on "both sides"?

The Russian barbarians are largely there because they want the money

They are invaders commuting the most heinous crimes

GTF with your both-siding

@Samedaysameshit
I’m interested in your thoughts on how the ‘west’ should respond to the situation in Ukraine?
Weaken Russia with minimal loss of life

Are you of the opinion we should look away and pretend it’s not happening
No, don’t be daft 🙄

And in response to the OP

Yes. Tanks and anything else they need

That’s not the case. Russia is conscripting men into the armed forces. This isn’t voluntary, this is forced.

And to drive it home, any towns and villages protesting conscription are being cut off from food supplies and told for every man of fighting age that “joins” their family will get rations. Or they can all starve to death.

No tanks.

Ok Expand.
To me though this sounds like a North Korea / Iran type approach and woukd probably take years.
By the way I agree sanctions remain in place and we don’t send Russia a can opener until there is change at the top- real change.
BUT.
Russia is going to launch a massive attack in about 8-10 weeks and recreate Bucha / Mariupol but on an industrial scale.
What do we do about that? Turn the news off and watch Netflix?
This is our 1938.
Nazis have invaded Czechoslovakia. Shall we let Russia have Ukraine and hope they stop there? Maybe let Moldova go too?
Latvia?

Germany is still very conscious of its involvement in the last war. They should be able to donate via NATO though, and not in their own name.

@KnickerlessParsons but this time, Germany are on the other side, and this is the perfect opportunity to make reparation for the past.

No tanks.

There are still limitations in place regarding what the German armed forces can do, and how many weapons they can have.
It would be much better if they donated under NATO's name.

@Samedaysameshit

Russia is going to launch a massive attack in about 8-10 weeks and recreate Bucha / Mariupol but on an industrial scale.

where? How do you know?

It would seem all those protesting outside the Bundestag disagree.

If zelensky wants tanks he can always sell off that chunk of Mayfair he owns and fucking buy some.

Posturing overstuffed tit of a man.