What can we do about dangerous dogs?

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There were 10 fatal dog attacks in the UK last year. A massive number compared to previous years. And, sadly, another already this year.

I have seen 100 suggestions over the years on Mumsnet, but there are always objections to taking any form of action against the dogs.

If it is suggested that more breeds are banned, there are the people who argue that no breed is intrinsically dangerous, and that is the fault of irresponsible owners, attracted to certain breeds, that any dog attacks. But how do we stop this? Irresponsible owners are not going to attend courses on how to be a responsible dog owner.

And then people argue that other dogs can dangerous - the dangerous retriever or poodle or spaniel. But these dogs are never found on the list of dogs causing fatal attacks. They are almost always the bullies, bulldogs, mastiffs, huskies, Rottweilers and Alsatians. You have to go back to 2015 to find an incident that is not one of these dogs. Since 1981 there are four examples which are not these dogs, out of 62. Two of these four are Jack Russells, who I think only don't cause more deaths because of their size.

And I think that's the key, to an extent. A human stands a fighting chance of escaping from many vicious dogs, but they simply cannot beat any of the breeds named above.

I personally do think it's in these dogs' nature to be aggressive. I think it's in their DNA (and I know it is in some other breeds too, but they don't have the strength of those above). But I understand that some people think it's all about the owner and the training. So if we don't ban breeds, so that anyone who notices one being led around their estate can report them, what do we do?

My job involves walking around estates for many hours a week, and I often walk past these dogs, and I think that there is absolutely no way that the owner could prevent the dog attacking. They are just too strong. It is becoming really quite intimidating in ways in which I haven't noticed in previous years.

So rather than a 'should we ban these breeds?' thread I suppose I'm asking what those people who think it's down to to nurture and not nature think would work in protecting the public (and owners' families - and themselves) from dog attacks?

I want them banned. Eradicated. All bully breeds. Anything capable of killing a human.
In the meantime, muzzles in public. Won't prevent them mauling their owners in their own homes, but that's the Darwin principle in effect. I'm only bothered when it's innocent people getting mauled/maimed/killed.

Couldn’t agree more, OP. My next door neighbour has a mastiff which he walks without a lead. It’s very intimidating.

Not to be pedantic, but all dogs are capable of killing a human. They’re dogs- predator animals.

in answer to the OP, I think there needs to be tougher rules and regulations about who can own dogs. Too many owners have dogs who simply shouldn’t and it’s a privilege to own a dog- not a right. You are not entitled to own a dog and some people simply shouldn’t, let alone a dog that requires high energy and stimulation. We need to stop thinking we have the right to own a dog.

I own working dog at the moment who is exercised for hours a day as she should be. And given a specific diet tailored to her health and lifestyle. If she wasn’t, as some owners wouldn’t, she would be stir crazy. But she’s calm, peaceful and has a great life and is a very happy girl!

the breeds you mentioned are highly intelligent and require LOTS of stimulation- physical and mental. They aren’t wired badly compared to other dogs and providing the owner gives them the lifestyle they need, they are fine pets. I grew up with alsations who were the gentlest creatures you would meet. But ultimately, we gave them the lifestyle they required and they were incredible family pets. I’ve seen countless labradors and doodles and other fashionable breeds who are equally dangerous and potentially dangerous because they are left alone for hours and hours, not trained properly, not exercised or given mental stimulation. I would be equally scared of a savage Labrador as I would a savage pittie.

what I’m trying to say is it’s the owner that’s the problem. The reality is, if you can’t provide the type of stimulation that these dogs require (which if we are being perfectly honest, most people can’t due to work, other factors etc) then you shouldn’t own it. The average person who works full time away from home, lives in a small 2 bed semi in the middle of a housing estate and has other commitments like kids usually don’t have the time (understandably) to correctly own these dogs. Half an hour walk round the streets is not nearly enough for them. It’s not fair on the dog or the person that ends up bitten when the dog is driven stir crazy.

It’s not the dogs fault, it’s the mentality that anyone has the right to own any dog they want. Tougher regulation needs to be in place for the dogs sake too

Absolutely everyone who has knowledge of a dangerous dog should report them to local dog warden !

Ban the keeping of dogs as pets. There's no need for it in 2023. I would allow assistance dogs/guide dogs but that's about it. Get rid of all the others.

Oh god, this thread is going to turn goady rather than a sensible discussion. Should have known!

All bully breeds? Do you realise that includes dogs like Boston terriers, pugs and french bulldogs? Boxers, staffies?

I might be biased as a long time boxer owner, they are powerful dogs but I'd be far more worried about a German shepherd or an akita attacking.

I do think it would be more than reasonable to enforce a dog licence and make it illegal to have dogs off lead in public. Plus mandatory dog training classes for anyone who has a dog, but I'm not sure how it would be feasible or realistic to enforce any of that, as the type of people who see their dogs as a status symbol aren't going to be the type of people who are bothered about the law. You only have to look at how many people sell puppies on gumtree, don't have them microchipped ect

I do agree with you, but is it right to allow ownership in a situation where a slight slip in those high levels of exercise/stimulation could cause a fatal outcome for a human? It seems a very precarious state. Why not ban the strong breeds (and indeed ban the practice of breeding for strength), so that if an owner does slip up and fail to provide the proper stimulation, people don't necessarily pay with their lives.

By the way, I'm not defending crappy owners at all, I'm just trying to address what the OP is asking - given that rubbish owners are always going to be rubbish owners, how could we legislate around that.

I've heard the argument a lot that all dogs have the potential to kill - but I'd fancy my chances against a chihuahua. Not so much an XL bully.

the breeds you mentioned are highly intelligent and require LOTS of stimulation- physical and mental. They aren’t wired badly compared to other dogs and providing the owner gives them the lifestyle they need, they are fine pets. I grew up with alsations who were the gentlest creatures you would meet. But ultimately, we gave them the lifestyle they required and they were incredible family pets. I’ve seen countless labradors and doodles and other fashionable breeds who are equally dangerous and potentially dangerous because they are left alone for hours and hours, not trained properly, not exercised or given mental stimulation. I would be equally scared of a savage Labrador as I would a savage pittie.

But retrievers, collies, labs, and cocker spaniels are all generally regarded as more intelligent than any I have listed, and yet their names don't feature on the list of fatal dog attacks. If there are countless labradors and doodles who are equally dangerous to those I've listed, why aren't they featuring in the list of fatal dog attacks? It makes no sense. Those breeds are attacking, not because they are 'bad' or wired wrong, but because they are dogs and that's what they have been bred to do by humans.

What regulation do you think would work?

One question - if dogs are not bred for pets who will breed the dogs for guide dogs or assistance dogs? Who will be the puppy walkers since there will end up limited people with dog handling knowledge, how much socialisation will they get if no other dogs are around. It wouldn't work long term.

Realistically.

Private breeding and sale of dogs/puppies needs to be banned. You should only be able to purchase a puppy from a registered and approved breeder. Full KC registration and home visits by the LA/RSPCA to ensure breeding standard and quality. Every dog should have a registered pedigree basically.

Anyone caught privately selling dogs on social media, gumtree and the like would face criminal prosecution and sadly the litter should be destroyed.

All dogs in public places should be on lead, with the exception of enclosed dog parks.

Owners should have to privately insure their dogs and have paperwork ready to display if requested. If private breeding was banned, you wouldn't be able to pick up a puppy from a reputable breeder without proof of insurance, same as a car.

Unrealistically and in MN madness

Just ban private dog ownership for all breeds from chihuahua to Great Dane. That way nobody can argue about the list of dogs allowed 🤣 blanket ban the lot of it for private ownership. Within 15-20 years the UK would be dog free.

The only exception would be working dogs such as assistance, military, police, farms.

Thanks for this reply. I agree - no Shih Tzu has got the ability to kill a human adult. They just don't have the ability to. And all adults could defend a child against one. No human adult stands a chance against any of the dogs in my OP though.

I think you've hit the thoughts I haven't articulated on the head. If we banned those 'repeat offenders', stopped the breeding of them, the the really shit owners cannot be as dangerous. It just seems that it would be much harder to try and force lazy, dangerous owners to become good ones, or not get dogs at all, than it would be to remove their ability to own dogs which can become dangerous because of the incompetence of the owner.

Those are really excellent, workable ideas (in my admittedly unprofessional opinion).

Of course there will always be the black market, but it would be a lot easier to crack down on it with clear standards and paperwork.

They may not appear on the fatality list, but the highest bite rate by any dog breed reported is labradors....

So whilst they may not "kill", labradors are statistically most likely to bite. Now that could be anything from a nip that broke the skin to life long scarring/deformity.

Any dog can bite. Which is why regulation, registration and public safety of a always on lead rule is the best approach.

I'm going to throw my hat in the ring and will be prepared to be flamed. Bring it on...

When I was a teenager (am in my 50s now), my friends Shih Tzu was destroyed by the police after it attacked a child. Didn't kill the child but maimed it, the child was about 5yrs old.

Now being completely off piste, what do we do about cats? My neighbours have cats and my allergy to them can see me in hospital with anaphylaxis. My adult DS is the same. In the summer, they climb in my windows or walk through my open back door so I have to keep everything shut. They could actually kill me (and I have been in hospital from a reaction more than once) but they wander about and their owners have no idea where they are. So what about those? I wonder how many hospitalisations and deaths have been caused by cats?

All the threads on this have dog owners saying the same things - it's not the dog, it's irresponsible owners or it's members of the public who don't know how to behave around dogs. If banning is suggested, owners talk about their lovely gentle staffie who wouldn't hurt a fly. If muzzles are suggested then it's "punishing" all the good dogs who wouldn't hurt anyone. If licences are suggested, we are told they wouldn't be policed or wouldn't address the problem as those owners with "problem" dogs wouldn't bother getting a licence. Or it's such a "tiny" risk it's not worth the hassle of licensing (disregarding the increase in numbers).

The issue will never be tackled when every possible solution is shouted down. What do they do in countries where fatal dog attacks are rare or unheard of?

I was bitten by a dog in a shop a couple of weeks ago, I reported it to the police and they could not have been less interested.

No point reporting to the dog warden as I don't know who the owner was, but the shop staff knew him and if the police had followed up they may have been able to find out where he lived.

It is not in a Dog warden's remit ( especially those only subcontracted by LA) to assess if a dog is dangerous or not. A dog warden is employed to collect found or straying dogs on behalf of a Local Authority or Borough Council..

If you consider a dog to be dangerous report to the police, but good luck with that one!

Cars are also dangerous in the hands of idiots. Let's ban all cars too.

Any dog that is big and strong enough to kill an adult human should be banned. Might as well keep a pet lion.

It really would be easy to crack down on the black market.

RSPCA should be granted the power to inspect pedigree and insurance of any dog.

So if someone reports a breeder/suspicion of private breeding the RSPCA should be able to enter with a warrant, and request all paperwork. No paperwork, dogs removed and destroyed.

If your dog is involved in a bite incident and you can't produce the pedigree paperwork and insurance due to black market sale, then you get prosecuted for handling black market goods, and the dog is destroyed.

At any point the RSPCA should be able to turn up on your door and request the pedigree and insurance certificate of your dog. Bit like TV licence agency. No paperwork no dog.

If covid taught us anything, is that the general public in the UK are more than happy to call someone up and report a "infraction" 🤣 if there was a covid rule breaking hotline, the phones would never have stopped ringing haha.

I live in an upstairs cottage flat. My cat Mog was lying and rolling on the stairs while I put something in the bins at the bottom of the stairs. I was on my way back up when a Springer Spaniel who was not on a lead ran up the stairs towards Mog. Immediately seeing the danger Mog ran in the open flat door and straight to the top of her climbing 190cm tall climbing tree. The owner stood on the street laughing and said “If you hadn’t been on the stairs the dog would have been in.”

I know a cat is entirely different to a person but I would argue that all dogs should be on a lead and muzzled in public.

Labradors are the most popular dog in the country,so that makes sense. Imagine how many deaths there would be if bullies were owned and biting at the same number as labs? It wouldn't be zero.

Agree with you on regulation and registration - but how to get irresponsible owners to take it seriously?

How many more people are injured/ killed on roads in cars? How many farming injuries occur by people producing our food (meat or arable farms via equipment or animals?) I dont know- I'm not stating any kind of fact. I just wonder about how many things no one would want to cancel are acceptable by the public because no one made front line news being knocked over and stamped on by a cow and suffered life long injuries or got trapped in equipment - we aren't told about so no one is outraged. ( I'm a bit farmy so i have several examples! )But dogs are people's main focus and we largely see them daily.(maybe there's as many posts abiout farmers being knocked and I've missed them! Like i say, I've not looked into it!) But i feel like there's equal and larger threats to human in these settings than require all dogs on lead or muzzle as a solution to what seems like rare dog attacks. My dog is a a sweetheart. Im a super owner. I'll never have another dog if this was a requirement . Your policy would only turn off good owners. Just my wee thoughts.the

Imagine if it had been a bully xl who got hold of the five year old, and not a shih tzu. All dogs can bite. Some dogs can kill.

And maybe start another thread about cats 😊.