What can we do about dangerous dogs?

[Create10]

There were 10 fatal dog attacks in the UK last year. A massive number compared to previous years. And, sadly, another already this year.

I have seen 100 suggestions over the years on Mumsnet, but there are always objections to taking any form of action against the dogs.

If it is suggested that more breeds are banned, there are the people who argue that no breed is intrinsically dangerous, and that is the fault of irresponsible owners, attracted to certain breeds, that any dog attacks. But how do we stop this? Irresponsible owners are not going to attend courses on how to be a responsible dog owner.

And then people argue that other dogs can dangerous - the dangerous retriever or poodle or spaniel. But these dogs are never found on the list of dogs causing fatal attacks. They are almost always the bullies, bulldogs, mastiffs, huskies, Rottweilers and Alsatians. You have to go back to 2015 to find an incident that is not one of these dogs. Since 1981 there are four examples which are not these dogs, out of 62. Two of these four are Jack Russells, who I think only don't cause more deaths because of their size.

And I think that's the key, to an extent. A human stands a fighting chance of escaping from many vicious dogs, but they simply cannot beat any of the breeds named above.

I personally do think it's in these dogs' nature to be aggressive. I think it's in their DNA (and I know it is in some other breeds too, but they don't have the strength of those above). But I understand that some people think it's all about the owner and the training. So if we don't ban breeds, so that anyone who notices one being led around their estate can report them, what do we do?

My job involves walking around estates for many hours a week, and I often walk past these dogs, and I think that there is absolutely no way that the owner could prevent the dog attacking. They are just too strong. It is becoming really quite intimidating in ways in which I haven't noticed in previous years.

So rather than a 'should we ban these breeds?' thread I suppose I'm asking what those people who think it's down to to nurture and not nature think would work in protecting the public (and owners' families - and themselves) from dog attacks?

UK dog passport scheme wouldn't actually cost that much to introduce, there could be a means tested fee;

1. All dogs to be microchipped and the chip details registered to the current keeper, kept in one central register.
2. All dogs to have third party liability insurance.
3. All dogs to be registered with a veterinarian, given an annual checkup, vaccinations and worming. Remove dogs from owners who refuse to comply.

It would also help if people stopped demonising shelters that euthanise unhomeable dogs.

This is often how I feel. All suggestions are shouted down because someone's own stafie is is harmless. Many, of course, are, because they're owned by responsible owners. But these dogs are dangerous weapons in the wrong hands. There is no need for a responsible owner to own such powerful and potentially dangerous dogs.

Dog walkers should be a licensed and have rules as to how many dogs they can walk. When we take our family Spaniel for a walk (on his lead) we now avoid certain open areas. The dog walkers there, often have 3 or 4 dogs, all different breeds running off lead and uncontrolled.

Honestly, I don’t know. There needs to be some sort of regulation in place though- nobody should be able to purchase a dog just because they want to. I’d be supportive of dogs being on a register or monitored in some ways to make sure their needs are being met, but that’s probably not practical or possible.

some of the smartest dogs are what you would class as dangerous- German shepherds and Belgian malinois for example. And I wouldn’t class collies as good dogs for inexperienced people as a full size collie could easily kill or maime.

I actually agree with you in some ways. But I stand by my point that these dogs are not wired differently- their needs just often aren’t met, and when they attack they have the strength to kill. So does a Labrador, but often their needs are easier to meet for the average owner than say a working Alsatian or a bull mastiff. I don’t think we should ban the breeds you mentioned, but I think there needs to be tougher monitoring about ownership. The average family lifestyle is not suitable for a dog like a malinois and they can have breed traits that someone inexperienced would not be able to handle. It’s cruel for the dog and a disaster waiting to happen. As a previous German shepherd owner I would have had no problem signing a register to have my dog monitored to ensure their needs were met and they were a safe animal. But I suppose the problem is, where do we draw the line? Is it based on size? If so, you would need to monitor golden retrievers and labs too- both have the capability and potential to kill.

it’s an interesting argument for sure! One thing is certain though, something needs to be done. For the dogs sake too, often these animals are in a state of high anxiety and are completely neurotic and miserable. The average person is not suitable to own a dog like a malinois or a mastiff and the mentality that everyone has the right to own any dog they want is massively problematic

Hugely in favour of banning all of the usual suspect breeds - Cane Corsos, Bullies / XL, Akitas, Chows, fucking Huskis in cities. But the actual legislation and enforcement is hugely complicated. How do you determine the breed? DNA testing? Who’s establishing the parameters and how? Paying for it? What does the process look like? Where does the dog live when it’s being assessed?

Add to this the fact that organised criminal gangs are now puppy farming as they branch out from drugs & people trafficking - which the useless government can’t stop either - and you can start to understand why people say it’s unenforceable.

We can’t even be sure the police will attend for burglaries or assaults - where are they coming from for dogs? As tragic as 10 deaths is, the risk v cost just doesn’t stack up. There is no money (or no appetite to spend it) for this.

But as I said, I’m definitely in favour of banning and destroying them all - and I say this as someone who loves and has kept dogs all my life.

In the meantime, let’s have all breeds who fulfil a set of criteria muzzled and harnessed in public - like 25kg+, bull breeds, any dog on the list of humans killed. But again, who’s enforcing it? All dogs are supposed to be microchipped- has anyone ever heard of anyone prosecuted for failing to do this?

Policing in this country is in shambles, and until the government sorts its priorities out and gives the sector more money, I’d rather what little there is goes on catching rapists and murderers and paedophiles.

The punishment for not taking it seriously is your dog is destroyed.

If you walk it in public not on a lead and you are filmed and reported, then there's no fines, warnings, just confiscation of the dog. No 3 strikes and you are out sadly.

Same if you can't produce the insurance paperwork when asked.

Now seen as the majority of irresponsible owners actually do love their dogs, they just haven't trained them they won't want to run the risk of their £5000 beloved family french bulldog being destroyed. They'd comply.

That then just leaves you with the criminals, but again their dogs would also just get taken away and destroyed but I don't think they will care as much as the family who just haven't trained their dog sadly.

I'd honestly push legislation tomorrow to ban private breeding. That way all you've got is whatever is out there now, but future litters would be better regulated for health and temperament. It's not a overnight fix on this just long term plan.

But leads and insurance could come into force immediately.

If someone is caught driving a car dangerously, driving a dangerous car (ie. without an MOT), or driving a car without demonstrating they can do so safely, then that is an offence.

A first time dog owner can buy a bully xl with no idea how to train it or exercise it to keep other people (and themselves) safe, keep it unstimulated and under-exercised, and walk it in public with no hope of keeping anyone safe from it if it decides to attack, and it is not an offence.

Cars are also dangerous in the hands of idiots. Let's ban all cars too.

Well, we don't and can't ban them; but we do require people to take lessons and pass a test before they are allowed to drive a car. Maybe the same should be true for dog owners.

Absolutely agree entirely with this.

I'm so sorry there were several dog posts yesterday and I replied accidentally to the post meaning the dogs should be muzzled. My post sounds rude as a response to you but I'm so sorry it wasnt meant rudely or argumentative. I hate there's no delete button!ŭ

@garlicbreed i complete disagree that they aren’t wired differently. Traits have been bred into these breeds for generations, deliberately, so they perform a specific function. Whatever I do, I will never, ever be able to train out my sighthound’s prey drive - it cannot be safely left around small furry rodents or cats - and I take steps to make sure they aren’t.

Breeds bred for aggression towards other animals, or for their guarding abilities towards their humans should not be allowed to be owned by anyone who doesn’t need it for work - and then they should have to have extensive training.

someone on another thread said Germany has provisions for owning these breeds - you have to apply for a licence, I guess similar to owning a dangerous animal like a tiger. This is a great idea - although how can it be enforced?

I agree ban dangerous breeds that have killed humans and make dog ownership much harder and more expensive. Stop idiots owning multiple dogs they can't control for status.

What is my policy? I haven't said one.

10 fatal dog attacks in one year - attacks are not that rare. And what you describe are accidents. Owning dogs strong enough to kill, and bred to fight, is not accidental.

We already ban people from keeping dangerous animals like big cats and apes, there's no reason why dogs couldn't be banned as well. Even guide dogs could be phased out after a while and replaced by technology. There's absolutely no reason not to do it.

Starting with breeders would be a good start. Make it an offence to breed dogs without a license (with strict conditions). An offence to buy a dog unless it's from a registered breeder or rescue. It won't stop everybody, and it's impossible to police (mostly) but it would stop a lot of irresponsible buying and selling of puppies.

This is why regulated breeders are needed and private sales banned.

A good breeder will never hand their puppies over to someone they think can't handle the dog/not suitable for the dog or purchasing the dog for nefarious means. They simply refuse sale.

So say a young family who never owned a dog before, aren't active, going to leave the dog in the house on its own for 9hours a day wanted a husky the breeder would say "no".

But say a young family who have never had a dog before but are active and have someone in the house all day, then a Labrador would be good. Breeder says "yes".

Good breeders will vet potential owners.

I have a mastiff, one of the suddenly demonised dogs. I have owned dogs all my life, from German shepherds to cocker spaniels and now a mastiff. We took this dog to dog trust puppy classes 5 years ago, he's well trained, well socialised and his needs are met. He's a beautiful dog, my only child and him are the best of friends, my late husband chose him and brought him home without my knowledge (but that's another thread). As a widow, I've found great comfort in having him. I work from hom most days so he always has company. This breed can get depressed if left alone for too long. He's walked daily on a lead always, he's not a fan of running about much these days. He's getting on now at age 5 (the life expectancy is about 9). So his joints are beginning to ache. I have never in the 5 years of owning him had a problem, my old cocker spaniel was more problematic to be honest!

5 years ago people just thought lovely big dog, but today he's a villain and dangerous which is sad.

But again, I do think more regulation is needed and control, even though I'm a giant doing breed owner.

@Florenz well, there’s several thousand years of dog and human companionship and mutual benefit that would stand in the way of that nonsense. We have never domesticated and cohabited with tigers or apes in the same way, and it’s stupid to suggest they are equitable.

Banning all dogs is ludicrous and smacks of someone who neither understands nor cares about the (scientifically-proven) positives dogs bring to humans.

There is an important debate to be had about regulating and making safer, dog ownership, but total bans are ludicrous. Especially for 10 deaths a year. Ladders and bath tubs would need to go first.

Oh no worries, sorry, I've cross posted with you.

It's an issue but it's not as bad as all the dangerous breeds of people going around killing people. Seems to happen more often.

Dogs get put to sleep if they kill a human anyway so they only do it once. HUmans often go on to kill many humans.

How about take action against the people who raised such an aggressive/reactive dog? I personally think people who have dogs that weigh over 20kg should have to do a training course to be licensed to own a dog of that size and over. That way they have the knowledge of how to properly train/raise dogs appropriately.

They’re vile. I’m fed up people defending them. I’ve been scared of dogs since I was 5 when I was chased by an Alsatian. It was traumatic and I dread to think what would have happened ten seconds later if the owner hadn’t even mutually caught up with the dog.
i do care about animals but sorry, don’t give a shiny shyte about dogs. Owners should have some sort of license to show they can look after them.

How would that be policed though?

@Create10 I'm guessing a system like how legal hunting gins are policed. You'd have to register your dog to a system with your licence details etc. I'm guessing society could enforce it further I.e licence must be carried at all times when out in public (police could stop and check that you are licenced), vets must insist on seeing licence or owner is reported to police. That sort of thing I guess would be a start.

*hunting guns

Ban them all then. That's absolutely fine by me.