What can we do about dangerous dogs?

[Create10]

There were 10 fatal dog attacks in the UK last year. A massive number compared to previous years. And, sadly, another already this year.

I have seen 100 suggestions over the years on Mumsnet, but there are always objections to taking any form of action against the dogs.

If it is suggested that more breeds are banned, there are the people who argue that no breed is intrinsically dangerous, and that is the fault of irresponsible owners, attracted to certain breeds, that any dog attacks. But how do we stop this? Irresponsible owners are not going to attend courses on how to be a responsible dog owner.

And then people argue that other dogs can dangerous - the dangerous retriever or poodle or spaniel. But these dogs are never found on the list of dogs causing fatal attacks. They are almost always the bullies, bulldogs, mastiffs, huskies, Rottweilers and Alsatians. You have to go back to 2015 to find an incident that is not one of these dogs. Since 1981 there are four examples which are not these dogs, out of 62. Two of these four are Jack Russells, who I think only don't cause more deaths because of their size.

And I think that's the key, to an extent. A human stands a fighting chance of escaping from many vicious dogs, but they simply cannot beat any of the breeds named above.

I personally do think it's in these dogs' nature to be aggressive. I think it's in their DNA (and I know it is in some other breeds too, but they don't have the strength of those above). But I understand that some people think it's all about the owner and the training. So if we don't ban breeds, so that anyone who notices one being led around their estate can report them, what do we do?

My job involves walking around estates for many hours a week, and I often walk past these dogs, and I think that there is absolutely no way that the owner could prevent the dog attacking. They are just too strong. It is becoming really quite intimidating in ways in which I haven't noticed in previous years.

So rather than a 'should we ban these breeds?' thread I suppose I'm asking what those people who think it's down to to nurture and not nature think would work in protecting the public (and owners' families - and themselves) from dog attacks?

It's very difficult to reason with dog people, they are in love with the dog and love is blind, they can't see how much of a noisy stinking disease spreading menacing nuisance it is, they just see a pink sparkly haze and lots of little hearts floating in the air
It probably looks a bit like this
💓💟💘
💖🐕💕
💕💝💞
that's what the inside of the dog person brain looks like
just don't bother talking to them, there's no point 🤷

Presuming you're referring to the tragic incident of the pro dog walker?
We need to look at ways to stop this ever happening again and I would start with reducing the number of dogs they can walk at the same time.

My neighbour has one that sleeps in an understairs cupboard and she says is ‘locked away’ when her children are up and about. I’ve seen the dog walked twice and only around the block. I’m scared one day it will flip. It is not exercised nearly enough for its size. Nor is it insured but that’s another story.

@StealingYourWiFi Do you know why she has such a large dog? It can’t be enjoyable to own in these circumstances.

Private breeding and sale of dogs/puppies needs to be banned. You should only be able to purchase a puppy from a registered and approved breeder. Full KC registration and home visits by the LA/RSPCA to ensure breeding standard and quality. Every dog should have a registered pedigree basically.

Anyone caught privately selling dogs on social media, gumtree and the like would face criminal prosecution and sadly the litter should be destroyed.

All dogs in public places should be on lead, with the exception of enclosed dog parks.

Owners should have to privately insure their dogs and have paperwork ready to display if requested. If private breeding was banned, you wouldn't be able to pick up a puppy from a reputable breeder without proof of insurance, same as a car.

I agree and I would like to nominate you @MoscowMules the Voice of Reason on this thread✅

Owning a dog should be considered a serious undertaking, not something done lightly or on a whim, you have to prove you are responsible dog owner!
I think we should also have limits on the amount of pets per household it might sound unfeasible on the face of it but I'm sure they do this in some parts of the USA?

@Michaelmonstera

status symbol for a chav sadly

^^Excellent post @Soothsayer1

Someone mention German regulations upthread. The rules seem very sensible, I would include Cane Corsos and Akitas in the automatic categories:

German Rules On Dangerous Dogs

Dangerous dogs are defined as animals either

• known to be vicious

• having indicated inclinations to attack game or livestock

• having attacked persons

• having shown unusually aggressiveness

Automatically included are Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, and Staffordshire Bullterriers and other dogs descendant from one of these dogs.

These races and any dogs deriving from these races cannot be imported to Germany. Breeding, reproduction, and trade of dangerous dogs are prohibited. The responsible authority may order the dog to be neutered. Dogs may not be trained or bred to become dangerous dogs.

Permission by the local authority is required to keep a dangerous dog. The owner must justify the need to keep the dog, for example as a watch dog. Furthermore, the owner must be at least 18 years of age and personally qualified. Personal qualification requires passing an aptitude test administered by a person or office certified by the State Veterinarian Chamber. This test is only valid for 5 years and only connected to the dog that is tested together with the owner.

Certain criteria automatically disqualify persons to own dangerous dogs:

• final conviction for at least one crime committed with premeditation or twice for crimes committed while drunk within the last 5 years
• addiction to alcohol or drugs, or mental illness or impairment
• repeated violation of dangerous dog legal provisions

Dangerous dogs must be kept safely. They must be marked with an electronic chip applied by a veterinarian. The dog owner has to show proof thereof to the local authority. Furthermore, if the dog is lost or given into somebody else's custody for more than 4 weeks the owner must notify the local authority.

In public areas, including common areas in multi-family housing such as stairwells, dangerous dogs must be on a leash and wear a muzzle. Dog owners may ask for an exemption to wear a muzzle if the dog poses no danger to public security. Persons walking dogs in public must be 18 years or older, physically able to control the dog and not disqualified. A person may only walk one dog at a time.

^^Excellent post
Thank you @Tolerant 🙏
Although in hindsight I think I probably should have added a bit of '💫' and the other sparkly emoji which I don't seem to have on this device 👀

@Michaelmonstera
Thank you for taking the time to explain the German way of doing things 🙏
It sounds orders of magnitude better than the (dog) mess we have in this country, we have made a complete and utter dogs breakfast of dog ownership.
It's shameful and embarrassing 😳🙈
why can't we be more like the Germans?!

Many years ago my husband had an Alsatian called Morgan. One day he took Morgan out for a walk off the lead and an unknown child came running up and threw her arms around Morgan. Morgan was a well trained dog who loved people and so she was quite happy with the extra attention.

If Morgan had not been such a good natured dog though and had turned on the child then who would have been to blame? My DH for walking her off a lead, the child for running over to a strange dog or the parent for not teaching the child that a strange dog’s personality is unknown and so a dog must be treated with a certain amount of respect and caution.

People need to teach their children how to treat dogs. Dog walkers need to be limited as to how many dogs they can walk at a time and if dogs are on the street or in an area with a lot of people they should be kept on leads.

There are already strict controls about where dogs can be off lead so those humans too frail to share their space with any dog at all can stick to them

Strict controls? Don't make me laugh. Dogs are off lead in pretty much every outdoor space you come across. If I could stick to places where off lead dogs are not allowed, believe me, I would.

This is true and unfortunately extendable leads mean that even when the dog is on a lead it can cause much more nuisance that it ought to be able to 🙈

@Soothsayer1 I gather you don’t like dogs from your previous post. I am a dog lover and have always had 1 or more dogs, including some large breeds. As we both agree that the German system would be a positive step forward, it obviously has some merit: protecting the public whilst allowing dog ownership of most dog breeds. The current UK legislation on dangerous dogs is not fit for purpose.

Why is this always levelled as a counter-argument, as though it makes it okay that people can own killer animals with zero training, because sometimes children run over to dogs uninvited? My child has been jumped on, snapped at, knocked over, barked and growled at. She would never dream of approaching a dog uninvited. And I'm just supposed to put up with the fact that the next time this happens it could be some pent up muscle breed who I can't fight off, and it kills us both.

@Michaelmonstera "I walk my dog over open farmland"

The very nature of 'farmland' is that it is used to cultivate food, either through livestock or crops. I am very unhappy that you are allowing your dog to pollute the food chain. Dog poo and wee is very bad for livestock, causes a lot of diseases, and is disasterous for wildlife. Please keep your dog off farmland and definitely don't let it off a lead on somebody else's land without specific permission.

I can see why you've reached that conclusion, I like friendly polite well behaved dogs, but in general I don't particularly want to encounter or be inconvenienced by dogs. Certainly I don't want to feel as if they have rights that are equivalent to those of a human!
I completely accept that dogs are man's best friend but there are just too many of the damn things shitting everywhere I'm sick of it. My life should not have to be constrained because of the needs of dogs to socialise or enjoy themselves.

Some of that is already in place the rest woul be easily legislated as extensions in f what already exists, and I doubt anyone would disagree very loudly. It's the policing of it that is the issue - as in there isn't any and it isn't anyone's priority.

Even a properly legislated for dog warden would be useful.

But men are humans and with that come human rights. Dogs are not humans (never thought I'd have to explain that).

If you own a large breed like an Alsatian you should have it muzzled. The onus is on the owner to control the dog regardless of the circumstances. Dogs need to fit around humans, not humans fit around dogs.

And the law would agree that you would be held responsible if the dog attacked the child, regardless of the child's actions. Especially if it was off lead!

My dog is polite. He has to sit and wait for people to pass us on pavements (we rarely get thanks). We’ve had 12 months of training, this is ongoing. He’s not allowed to say hello to people, nor them him. We cross the road if a buggy, scooter, bike, child, dog or man are on the same side as us as he’s scared of them all. He’s never off a lead (other than when we hire a field) so he doesn’t approach other dogs. He was found in a shed, emaciated, when police raided a home. He was 2 years old. Covered in cigarette burns and scars. Nursed back to health by a reputable rescue centre. Evaluated and put up for adoption to people with experience.
He’s an American bulldog though, so I’m a chav who looks at my dog like this 💞💖 so what do I know? I’ll book into to get him pts first thing. So grateful to the experts on this thread.

Simple intelligence test: is it spelled XL Bullies or XL Bully’s? If you click the latter you can’t have one and you certainly can’t breed them!

In reality, we need better control over breeders. I know of 3 people who have XL/ pocket bullies and all are breeding them and over breeding them at that. Advertising on FB and Instagram etc needs to be banned too especially when owners are offering “Black Friday” sales on their dog’s sperm 🤢🤢🤢.

These dogs should be banned altogether, they serve no purpose and if not, they should definitely be banned from houses with children. Health Visitors, social workers etc who visit children in houses need to have specific training on spotting dangerous dog behaviour and where to report it.

In the specific case of the lady who died this week, as awful as it it, she should never have been walking 8 dogs at once especially when at least some of those must have been large and aggressive. I wouldn’t want my soft as a brush lab to be walked with 7 other dogs, how could she keep an eye on them all? A properly trained dog walker would know not to walk too many dogs at once.

Dogs need to fit around humans, not humans fit around dogs
Amen to that🙏
a pithy and perfect summation from @Forever42

@SillyLittleBiscuit your dog sounds gorgeous. Thank you for giving him the love he deserves