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Original poster

So the NHS has long gone

252 replies

DarkKarmaIlama · 19/12/2022 15:34

At what point do we think the government will do something about the massive elephant in the room the NHS has fucked off out of the window and is never returning.

This healthcare no man’s land is quite frankly terrifying. What are your predictions on this? All I keep reading is “it will get worse”. Can it actually get any worse?

OP posts:
dreamingofsun · 19/12/2022 19:10

If the NHS is so underfunded, how can it justify all these add-on/not front line jobs? How come its so wasteful? When was the last time all the dead wood was removed and it was restructured into a 21 century organisation. What is the point of having lots of bean counters if you fail your targets each time?

I'm sick of hearing that lack of money is the issue or that outsourcing is a problem. When is it going to be streamlined so that the money it has is used effectively. Companies have to do this, why cant the NHS?

EmmaAgain22 · 19/12/2022 19:17

cptartapp · 19/12/2022 19:06

This.
As a nurse of over 30 years I see too many people living too long, often in a very poor state at great expense.
And why do other taxpayers have to start contributing to the care of others in care home for example, who still have £23k in the bank? Reduce the thresholds massively. If care takes almost all our savings then so be it. Redirect tax payers money elsewhere. We can't afford sentiment.

In terms of living too long, I think perhaps people should hear the bill for treatment...my dad's last week on this earth cost about five figures on medical treatments. (I found by accident because I heard the MDT talking). It is a bit mad.

I actually gave up on the idea of the government changing the NHS...if they plan a new system, they are being horrendously slow about it.

Liebig · 19/12/2022 19:17

dreamingofsun · 19/12/2022 19:10

If the NHS is so underfunded, how can it justify all these add-on/not front line jobs? How come its so wasteful? When was the last time all the dead wood was removed and it was restructured into a 21 century organisation. What is the point of having lots of bean counters if you fail your targets each time?

I'm sick of hearing that lack of money is the issue or that outsourcing is a problem. When is it going to be streamlined so that the money it has is used effectively. Companies have to do this, why cant the NHS?

Companies don’t have to do this. Checked Big Tech lately?

And what waste is there in the NHS that you recommend getting rid of? Can you elaborate?

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

General health
Palomabalom · 19/12/2022 19:17

I think we are looking at a health system with different levels of care and service:
basic free care for the poor and emergency
silver -working - lower middle class
gold - upper middle
platinum ( big profits ) country club style hospitals .

you only get what you pay for and there will be loads of sick people who will so scared of hospital costs they won’t go.

MarshaBradyo · 19/12/2022 19:19

EmmaAgain22 · 19/12/2022 19:17

In terms of living too long, I think perhaps people should hear the bill for treatment...my dad's last week on this earth cost about five figures on medical treatments. (I found by accident because I heard the MDT talking). It is a bit mad.

I actually gave up on the idea of the government changing the NHS...if they plan a new system, they are being horrendously slow about it.

Show quote history

Yeh I did get an itemised cost through private healthcare

It made me realise how hard it is to face all that comes with ageing population. Not that NHS is terrible, arguably it’s keeping us alive longer

EmmaAgain22 · 19/12/2022 19:20

dreamingofsun · 19/12/2022 19:10

If the NHS is so underfunded, how can it justify all these add-on/not front line jobs? How come its so wasteful? When was the last time all the dead wood was removed and it was restructured into a 21 century organisation. What is the point of having lots of bean counters if you fail your targets each time?

I'm sick of hearing that lack of money is the issue or that outsourcing is a problem. When is it going to be streamlined so that the money it has is used effectively. Companies have to do this, why cant the NHS?

Agree

I walked away from a well paid contract job that was aimed at giving nurses more (non medical) paperwork to fill in...no benefit to patients whatsoever. Two contractors in place from other parts of the country, so hotel bills paid on top of their 50k. Overall boss was on £80k.

it's rare for me to put morals before money but it really made me feel ill, I just couldn't do a job like that.

Stompythedinosaur · 19/12/2022 19:24

Don't be ridiculous, the NHS isn't gone. I worked all day seeing kids today. I don't think I was hallucinating.

The NHS is certainly under attack, but no point in being over dramatic.

helford · 19/12/2022 19:24

People arguing for reform etc need to then answer how the NHS functions whilst this reform takes place whilst its so struggling with waiting lists, strikes, shortages of staff, equipment and buildings.

Also, how does reform generating more staff?

Listen to the people doing the job.

dreamingofsun · 19/12/2022 19:27

Liebig - obviously no-one could answer where cost savings should be made without doing some proper analysis. But non front line jobs should be cut back, eg the living role that was posted on here recently for 100k. Once enough posts have been filled then the locuming could be reduced right down. My IL's were given lunch at some hospitals despite only having short day appointments. There are posts on here about equipment only used once instead of being cleaned. But a major restructure so focus money on front line would seem an option - in much the same way that large companies restructure periodically and make shed loads of defunct jobs redundant.

dreamingofsun · 19/12/2022 19:30

helford - they function in the same way that large organisations do as they are reforming. Reforming generates more staff as the cost savings can be used where they are most needed. And listening to the people doing the job - maybe, but where has that got us....to where we are now. it should be a combination of experienced old hands and imaginative new thinkers....otherwise you carry on doing what you have been that doesnt seem to be working

Petersonuk · 19/12/2022 19:35

I can walk to my local wetherspoons pub now and see the same old middle-aged men binge drinking cheap lager whilst popping out for a fag with their cheap amberleaf baccy rollups.

Tomorrow i can go there and see the same faces as the day before.. and so on and so on.

In the next couple of decades these people are going to collect cost the NHS millions and millions of pounds in cancer care and various other ailments they're going to get.

24hoursfromtulsa · 19/12/2022 19:41

Total hyperbole to say that the NHS has 'gone'.

It has lots of problems/issues, but many parts are still working very well.

My DH has secondary cancer and is receiving excellent care from the hospital, very regularly. Same with our GP, good care, no issues getting appointments, prescriptions etc.

CornishGem1975 · 19/12/2022 19:45

It has lots of problems/issues, but many parts are still working very well.

Agree. I have needed to use a few different NHS departments in the past few months (dental, physio, cardiology, ultrasound, CT scan) I have had EXCELLENT treatment and actually been seen quicker than I have pre-pandemic.

Problems in the NHS are not new. In 2000 I need a gynae procedure, it took 6 months to see the consultant, another 6 months to actually get a very quick day procedure done. In 2010 I had a knee operation, at the time the NHS were pushing you to private hospitals to reduce their ridiculously long waiting lists. There's always issues.

user1497207191 · 19/12/2022 19:47

Fifi00 · 19/12/2022 15:58

More people will want to train, many people apply for medicine but there's not enough places. The government restrict it

Show quote history

Not just the Govt. A few years ago, the BMA voted to restrict number of training places and ban new medical schools. Training places have to be limited because you need hospitals and doctors to provide "on the job" training.

ZeViteVitchofCwismas · 19/12/2022 19:53

We have a model and a system.
It just needs tweaking.

helford · 19/12/2022 19:54

dreamingofsun · 19/12/2022 19:30

helford - they function in the same way that large organisations do as they are reforming. Reforming generates more staff as the cost savings can be used where they are most needed. And listening to the people doing the job - maybe, but where has that got us....to where we are now. it should be a combination of experienced old hands and imaginative new thinkers....otherwise you carry on doing what you have been that doesnt seem to be working

Reform is extremely disruptive, usually wrecks morale and once again, where are the extra staff going to come from?

The NHS doesn't work because it has suffered less funding than it needs for at least 12 years and what funding it does get is used to fire fight, no planning, just throw money at it and no social care planning.

I'm not against reform, its essential but get it working and staffed properly first, which will take years and require opening up the NHS & social care to EU workers, their families and no visas or health insurance.

Why EU? because they have equivalence in training to UK.

helford · 19/12/2022 19:56

user1497207191 · 19/12/2022 19:47

Not just the Govt. A few years ago, the BMA voted to restrict number of training places and ban new medical schools. Training places have to be limited because you need hospitals and doctors to provide "on the job" training.

Show quote history

Always make me laugh, the BMA is a union, since when does a Tory Govt listen to a union? BMA doesn't make policy.

Red herring.

Govt didn't fund Doctor training further down stream, hence less places.

herecomesthsun · 19/12/2022 20:02

"A few years ago, the BMA voted to restrict number of training places and ban new medical schools. Training places have to be limited because you need hospitals and doctors to provide "on the job" training."

Well, it takes time to teach medical students and there are limits to how many you can have sitting in on appointments. That's a very real issue currently, medical schools have had a real struggle finding clinical placements for students in the current pressurized clinical situation.

"it will get worse" - are we going to end up with a situation approaching that in the States, where people can't get treatment without being insured? Where desperately ill people face enormous medical bills? Where people want to die rather that bankrupt their family? Where the most vulnerable people can be left without care?

It does look as though it could still get worse, for some people, if we go down that route.

SusiePevensie · 19/12/2022 20:05

The catch with all this is that the NHS is more, not less efficient than other health systems. It's also less efficient than most businesses, but that's not something you can engineer out - it's inherent in health economics because there's a colossal information asymmetry - having cancer or a broken leg doesn't make you an oncologist or an orthopedic surgeon.

You fix the NHS the way Labour did - by funding it more. And if you fix the NHS you then have more money as a government, because people are working and spending and paying tax instead of waiting for a hip replacement.

MarshaBradyo · 19/12/2022 20:13

SusiePevensie · 19/12/2022 20:05

The catch with all this is that the NHS is more, not less efficient than other health systems. It's also less efficient than most businesses, but that's not something you can engineer out - it's inherent in health economics because there's a colossal information asymmetry - having cancer or a broken leg doesn't make you an oncologist or an orthopedic surgeon.

You fix the NHS the way Labour did - by funding it more. And if you fix the NHS you then have more money as a government, because people are working and spending and paying tax instead of waiting for a hip replacement.

Where does the extra funding come from?

user1497207191 · 19/12/2022 20:14

SusiePevensie · 19/12/2022 20:05

The catch with all this is that the NHS is more, not less efficient than other health systems. It's also less efficient than most businesses, but that's not something you can engineer out - it's inherent in health economics because there's a colossal information asymmetry - having cancer or a broken leg doesn't make you an oncologist or an orthopedic surgeon.

You fix the NHS the way Labour did - by funding it more. And if you fix the NHS you then have more money as a government, because people are working and spending and paying tax instead of waiting for a hip replacement.

Throwing money at it won't work without reform. It's a leaky bucket. I'm all for increased funding, but it has to be hand in hand with reform and efficiency, and more importantly not wasted on ruinously expensive PFI contracts and all kinds of "initiatives"!

Dogsgottabone · 19/12/2022 20:22

Grumpybutfunny · 19/12/2022 15:59

NHS isn't gone and quite frankly that's an insult to NHS staff working through some of the toughest times in history to keep it going.

Something needs to change but as a country we can't afford it. We all need to contribute more if we want it to be 100% free at point of use with short waiting times. But rightly the majority don't want to do that.

Personally I would like to see it invest in ground breaking surgery and cancer treatment that very few would be able to afford privately. I would have no problem with increasing prescription costs, charges to see GP at times we want (I.e you want a free appointment no problem that will be at X date and X time, oh that doesn't suit we'll be have tomorrow at 3pm for £20 etc). You could also do mandatory PA and ANP appointments before you are allowed a GP appointment. The ability to pay for side rooms etc would also be a bonus.

Fine for inappropriate A&E attendance if you don't have a 111 reference 1st. I.e present with a heart attack no problem symptoms are obvious, present with an issue you have had for years and no reference that £400 please. Remove the requirement to discharge to a place of safety, if they are fit for discharge the responsibility is passed to family or in extreme cases the local authority who have 24hrs to find somewhere for them to go. My granddad spent three extra weeks in hospital whilst the local authority argued over who was responsible for the bill.

Removal of minor surgery procedures from the NHS I know a GP has just removed a wart for someone!!!

I agree with every word you say.

We used to live in Ireland and it was €55 to see our GP. Appointment whenever we needed it and that same day.

Honper · 19/12/2022 20:27

Timeforabiscuit · 19/12/2022 15:38

NHS is not gone, DH had a surgery and treatment over the last year which most of the world wouldn't have access to or would have bankrupted a household.

He is now back at work, but more importantly he's still with us.

I'm glad your DH got treated but you're incorrect that the UK is the only country who would do it without bankrupting him. Most developed countries and many emerging ones have universal healthcare that doesn't require citizens to bankrupt themselves in order to access it.

coffeetofunction · 19/12/2022 20:35

The NHS is a mess because the people in charge seem to be unable to make adequate changes and re-education the public.

There's a vicious circle for nursing and clinical staff...

Lack of new nurses because the bursery has been taken away. Student nurses now face 45k of debt before starting...

Limited new nurses coming in

Over worked and burnt out nurses unable to support the new nurses coming through

Overwork and burnt out nurses because there isn't enough nurses

Under valued auxiliary staff/HCA/csw that can offer support but have duties taken from them in case they get it wrong and aren't trusted to have adequate knowledge (which it's true)

Nurses being expected to do jobs that would previously been asked by more clinically trained members such as doctor or ACP's, therefore increasing the work load

Not enough doctors coming through to replace the doctors as they retire. This gap will only increase.

An Increased population that are being kept alive longer without adequate social care

Under valued and under paid care staff

Joe public misusing services due to all of the above

Joe public expecting a service they have received for the last 30 plus years including all medical appointments being face to face which is no longer possible and not understanding how fully trained and experienced medical clinicians are able to diagnose conditions even though they can!

I could add more but I'm sure most people can see this circle the NHS are in

Babyroobs · 19/12/2022 20:44

We lived in new zealand for some years and paid $60 NZ ( about £20 at the time ) to see a GP and for things like physio. Hospital care was free. I think people could pay something towards hospital care - at least for meals, surely they would be buying them at home. Over 60's could be paying for prescriptions - many are still working until 67. We have just got too used to having everything for free but don't want to pay the taxes for it. I work with a lot of elderly people. Some have a lot of savings but still begrudge paying for carers to come in. the charity I work for provides home care at reasonable price per hour for cleaning or personal care but people say it's too much so they struggle on until things reach crisis point. It is clear that it's not just the NHS that's overwhelmed though, the whole adult social care system is collapsing.