Canada Assisted Dying Shitshow

[antelopevalley]

Anyone else been following what is happening in Canada around assisted dying? Lots of issues with mentally ill and depressed people being helped to kill themselves and assisted dying in some cases being pushed on disabled people. Below is a screenshot from the latest awful story.

This is what worries me about assisted dying, how it is implemented in practice. I remember how awful the Liverpool Pathway was that was supposed to make dying patients' last days more comfortable, and instead led to people who may have recovered being starved to death.

These letters were pre process. Basically the employee should never have mentioned Maid, nor should anyone who isn't part of the process but in this case, this employee did. I saw another person who said their social services case worker also mentioned they look into Maid. Again, these are people who are not involved with the Maid process but they work with people with disabilities and brought it up as options when it wasn't their job to do so. IF the person with disabilities had asked about Maid, these individuals should refer them to a health care professional. Should the person have decided based on the employers in appropraite letter to look into Maid, then at that point an assessor would be contacted and the process would then start. So these cases being reported are before the actual Maid process and safeguards. Still very inappropriate to have a social services case worker make you feel like burden because they don't have resources for you and to suggest Maid. But this inappropriateness is disconnected from the Maid process itself.

Kill people off.

Ooh what a good idea.

What a well thought through contribution to the debate. So insightful. Have you read the full thread, including the personal stories of people affected by the issue who include myself?

I read about a lady in Belgium who had an advanced directive asking for euthanasia should she develop dementia.
Well, she did develop dementia and was apparently fighting the doctors who euthanised her, saying please let me live. But they didn't.

Having cared for various dementia patients & all 4 of my grandparents having had dementia this breaks my heart.
It's hard to explain but I think many don't realise that although if you get dementia you may develop a changed personality, you may be forgetful & struggle with daily activities... the truth is that you may also be quite happy in your new 'self' as some dementia patients are. Obviously some dementia patients are not happy at all.
It's too easy to look ahead and say I wouldn't want to live like that, but as I've seen, the human will to live in any circumstances is actually very strong.
That's one of the reasons I'm strongly against euthanasia.
I think dementia care needs better funding and so does good end of life care, and mental health services. Nursing and care staff in these areas need better pay & conditions to attract and retain them.
There should then be no need for anyone to consider euthanasia.
On a personal level I have epilepsy & Schizoaffective disorder.. I've read about people with these disorders who were murdered by doctors in Nazi Germany during the T4 Euthanasia Aktion. Shocking & horrific. They did that in Nazi Germany barely 80 years ago for ideological & financial reasons.
The slippery slope of euthanasia could well be when politicians & others go from believing they are 'helping' people end their lives in a 'better' way to realising there may be possible positive financial benefits for euthanasia in these times of austerity..

@SommerTen read the full thread about people's experiences and then say all that again. Nobody should be forced to 'live' when they do not want to. I agree dementia should have its own regulations, but given what happened with my grandmother, I have no time for your arguments. I am just glad she lived in a country where she could step out at a moment of her choosing, with her family around her, instead of suffering and dying slowly over a period of months. Palliative care is not always enough. There is no perfect pain relief. Dignity matters. Choice matters even more.

It is true though.

Bollocks it is. It's a simplistic take on a complex ethical question that has many aspects to it.

@antelopevalley I know someone who was in hospital with cancer. The patient died from choking on their own faecal matter. Medical intervention did not work. Friend’s father currently fighting a losing battle with bowel cancer, he’s in incredible pain.

You and alot of others on this thread seem to have romanticised death. I hope you never face what I have seen, I can assure you that you would beg to die and there would quite frankly be something wrong with you if you wanted to suffer.

If I am ever diagnosed with a terminal disease I pray I’ll have the courage to cancel my ticket and spare my family the nightmares.

@Suzi888 the antis on this thread not only romanticise death, they also fetishise life. Life is to be preserved at all costs, even against someone's will. It's a scary position to take.

When it comes to suicide of otherwise healthy people the calculus should be different as unsuccessful suicide attempts are rarely repeated.

@Suzi888 I have not romanticised death. I have seen three close relatives die. Your friend's father should not be in lots of pain. A syringe driver should be used.

I’ve also seen a relative die at home with cancer. He was riddled with it - lungs, bones, liver.
The district nursing care was outstanding, he died peacefully, sedated with pain relief and anti-anxiety meds all delivered via a driver.
Death in its own time CAN be done well. Sadly it doesn’t happen that way which is why I think people push for euthanasia legislation.
I certainly don’t think we should be prolonging life at all costs. It’s the prolonging of life at all cost which has lead to some of these situations awful situations. For example why would the medical profession be suggesting open heart surgery to someone who is nearly 90? Or offering chemo to someone who has stage 4 cancer just to buy them a couple of months. It’s crazy and brutal. Provide palliative care but do it well.
We all have to die of something.

@MintyFreshOne define 'otherwise healthy'. Because it really isn't as black and white as all that.

@Wherediditallgo it's good that your relative had a positive experience. But that good experience isn't available to everyone, not just because the palliative care isn't available but because for some people it does not work. It doesn't always offer sufficient pain relief or dignity. That is the reality of it.

Anyone who thinks that every person who has good palliative care has these amazing last weeks and deaths that are nothing but kumbaya and having a grand time with family and no pain needs to talk to a palliative care nurse.

If it doesn’t work the the protocols of sedation /meds need to be looked at. I suspect there’s a “one size fits all” set of protocols. If so, there needs to be a massive review on this.
Doctors manage to sedate, anaesthetise, immobilise and analgese patients sufficiently for surgery so surely to goodness they can do the same till death takes over.

There was no “kumbaya or having a grand time” with my relative. Yes there were some moments of distress which is when the nurse stepped in to adjust medication.

@Wherediditallgo if you keep someone sedated as you would for surgery and maintain that for any length of time, the patient would die. And soon. Why would that be OK but not euthanasia at a person's request?

@pointythings If that is needed for pain relief then that should be done.

There is no quality of life in being sedated. You can't keep people sedated long term.

There was no “kumbaya or having a grand time” with my relative. Yes there were some moments of distress which is when the nurse stepped in to adjust medication.

And what did your relative want? Because ultimately that is the crux of it - the right to self determination. The right to choose not to 'live' like that - constantly full of drugs, unable to do anything for yourself. Why are we not allowed to choose when we leave this life?

Then what is the difference?

Intent

And why exactly is intent a problem if there is informed consent?

Palliative care is about optimizing quality of life and mitigating suffering to the extent possible. In Canada palliative care can be involved for years. No palliative nurse will say they can mitigate all suffering and restore quality of life to the point the person feels is reasonable to go on living. Many people receiving palliative care are going about their day and their life in pain and suffering and with a greatly reduced quality of life. There are no meds that restore quality of life and sedation only further decreases quality of life and isn't a long term solution. Someone with cancer, Huntington's etc could live for years post loss of quality of life

I witnessed my father-in-law die a f¥cking awful death last year, in pain, barely able to move, none of the NHS painkillers working, strictly controlled morphine doled out by visiting pallative nurses we had to call to come over, lest he "get addicted" (he was dying FFS). His entire life he said he never wanted to have a painful bedridden death, but by the time he was ready to call it a day and "go to Switzerland" he had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's and was no longer eligible. It was brutal to witness the horrific ghastly death of this wonderful dignified husband and father shitting into a diaper, dying in pain. There are two sides to this "debate" -- "my body my choice" is not just about abortion rights. Canada may not have it 100% right, but it's a hell of a lot better than the shitshow we've got here.