Canada Assisted Dying Shitshow

[antelopevalley]

Anyone else been following what is happening in Canada around assisted dying? Lots of issues with mentally ill and depressed people being helped to kill themselves and assisted dying in some cases being pushed on disabled people. Below is a screenshot from the latest awful story.

This is what worries me about assisted dying, how it is implemented in practice. I remember how awful the Liverpool Pathway was that was supposed to make dying patients' last days more comfortable, and instead led to people who may have recovered being starved to death.

Of course it would. But if they had mental capacity and were after legal euthanasia because they felt life was unbearable, I would accept that, support them and grieve for them. Because it isn't my life, it's theirs. We don't go through life by avoiding the hard times. We make our choices and allow others to make theirs.

There is some good debate on this thread but also a fair amount of misunderstanding and inaccuracies about Maid, at least in the Canadian context. Some of the discussed scenarios are outside the scope of Maid and would not happen due to the laws and safeguarding measures in place. And as mentioned, no one in Canada has been assessed for Maid or accepted due to mental illness to date.

I encourage those interested to read the previously linked reports and documents and better understand the process, inclusion criteria, exclusion criteria, safeguarding measures, and the stats, demographics, and characteristics of who to date has applied for Maid in Canada and who in the end chose to receive it.

Despite Canada allowing applications for Maid for those who did not have a foreseeable death but were requesting Maid for unrelievable suffering and poor quality of life, only 2.2% of Maid recipients were in that track in 2021. The process and safeguarding measures and wait periods are different for those with foreseeable death vs non foreseeable death. The process in Canada is quite robust with safeguards and options at various points in time. There are multiple health care providers involved along the way. It is will be interesting to see what will happen when the mental illness exclusion clause is lifted in March however the same rigorous process and safeguarding measures are there. Any initial requests must first meet inclusion criteria as determined by a trained maid assessor before a written application can be submitted.

Headlines can be scintillating and stories embellished but the reality is far more mundane and process oriented.

@musingsinmidlife I understand the protocols on paper may be fine. But it is clear that in practice horrific things are happening.
It reminds me of the Liverpool Pathway in Britain. On paper a caring and compassionate measure. In practice there were many horrific cases.

@antelopevalley have you got evidence of the % of assisted suicides where things are going wrong? Because while each incident is in itself awful, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have assisted suicide at all, because not having it would be so much worse. Each incident identified should lead to reviews and changes where needed, but this isn't a zero sum game where we shouldn't do it at all unless it is 100% perfect. Nothing in medicine or in life is 100% perfect.

@pointythings I am not in Canada and keep reading about cases where things have gone wrong. This is not one or two people.
It is like the Liverpool Pathway in Britain where we kept being told it only went wrong with one or two people while the cases mounted and the scale of the tragedy was revealed.

And I would never sign an advance declaration because I do not trust those in charge.

The one person I know who has this in place had to fight with his drs in order to get it set up. It took AGES.

MAID is not an easy thing to access.

Some of your original post is blatantly false. No one in Canada has had Maid for mental illness, it isn’t legal yet and some of the stories you are reading are false. As I said you have to understand the context of these stories that have in some cases been clearly untrue in the context of fighting for additional funding for people with disabilities. They are counting on people like you and others to not know the laws or practices and just believe whatever they say to try and make their case for more funding.

the process in Canada is not one that a person can circumvent no matter how many disability funding advocates tell you that doctors in canada are just running around with syringes euthanizing anyone who is poor or unwell or who feels like a burden. It is very gullible to think that doctors don’t care about their licences, their jobs or being criminally charged and are opting instead for trying to rid the country of disabled people.

I think assisted dying is something that absolutely should be available. We need to build a solid framework around it and have robust safeguards. Then let people choose to end their suffering.

@antelopevalley I was not for a moment saying that there are no times when the process goes wrong. But you seem to think that unless it goes right 100% of the time, we should not have assisted dying at all. That is a pipe dream, because in the realm of medicine, nothing is 100% safe. Not even the paracetamol you probably take when you have a headache.

'I've read stories' isn't evidence, it's anecdote. I would need to see actual data showing that a high % of assisted suicides go badly wrong if I were to change my view on this issue, so please do feel free to assist.

And by all means don't have an advance directive - nobody is going to make you.

We put animals to sleep for less.
People should be able to choose for themselves.
We should be allowed to state our wishes while we are of sound and sane mind, what you want to happen in the event that you may become terminally ill, or even severely incapacitated following an accident say, where you may be left with severe brain injuries which render you incapable of looking after yourself.
A friend of mine has Huntington disease. He is now completely immobile and bed bound, he can't eat ( peg fed ) drink, speak, control his continence or move any part of his body at all apart from his eyes.
His brain is still fully functional however.
He is 49 and could live another 40 years!
Imagine existing just to look at a ceiling all day and have someone wiping your backside for years on end.
Two of his three children have been diagnosed with it ( it's inherited ) and they see what's in store for them in years to come when they look at their father.
A horrifying future and rather than allowing them to put plans in place to avoid it, we subject them to it.
Shocking, absolutely shocking.
Remember Tony Hinks? He had locked in syndrome, he could only move his eyelids. His mind was still fully functional.He wanted to end his life, the courts said no. How can anyone hear that poor man's agonised wail when he was told that he was going to be subjected to existing like that for years and not weep for him?
Appalling!
Fortunately for him, he died not too long after. He had just given up the will to live. That poor man.
So yes, people should be able to choose whether they want to live or die.
Suicide is no longer illegal, yet we deny people the chance to commit it.
We have the argument that well, doctors take the Hippocratic oath, to preserve life. They can't play God. Well that argument doesn't really stand up, because by keeping people alive through medical intervention who would have otherwise died, is actually playing God.
They play God each time they withdraw medical intervention near to the end of life, after playing God to get to that stage.

My mother was vomiting actual shit in the weeks before she died of cancer.

Don't mistake your own experiences for universal truths.

@fdgdfgdfgdfg That is horrific. It can also usually be prevented. I am so sorry you had to see that.

Palliative care in Britain can be very poor, but it does not have to be like that.

But sometimes it is , and not because palliative care isn’t good enough. It is because the medications and drugs simply aren’t effective enough, because the ravages of some diseases on people are much more consuming than the very best palliative care. They’re not aiming to be cured, they just want to be pain free and not distressed. And that cannot be done in every single case.

@Feelallright Perhaps. But I used to think that and changed my mind after witnessing excellent palliative care. His bowel was ruptured and medication was given to prevent faeces vomiting.

Then your person, thankfully, was both in good hands and could be treated with drugs that actually worked on him. That is not the case for everyone.

I’m all for assisted dying, DF had a terminal diagnosis and took his own life while he still could, I am absolutely ok with his decision but would have much rather had the chance to say goodbye. I spoke to him the day before and he asked me to research his diagnosis, the next day my DB phoned to say he’d shot himself. I live with the memory that he was a very brave man.

@antelopevalley It was a quote from the investiative Commission and nowhere have I "pretended" to suggest anything about the quality of care received.

Furthermore, according to this report it was a serious sexual assault, not rape. I cannot comment on the standard of the mental health care the patient received as I don't have the details and more importantly, I am not a mental health expert.

I am, however, a believer in facts before opinions. Your argument loses strength when you neglect facts by insisting it was rape as it then undermines whatever else you are saying.

This research paper might help you to better understand the context.

Investigative not investiative!

I have a family member with Parkinson's. They personally won't choose Maid because they don't want it but I am very glad it is an option for those who want it. I watched another family member spend years in pain and agony and with no quality of life, even with great palliative care. She didn't want to be sedated (and sedation and immobility has its own challenges) so she had no choice but to live and die in pain. No one should have to go through that. Yes, medication can put you into a subconscious state so you lose awareness of your surroundings and much of your pain but what is the point to that? Lying deeply sedated in bed isn't living. Maid is an option that gives people choice. It is highly regulated and controlled and I am very glad it is legal in Canada. I don't currently live there but have many family members there.

Oh well, that's perfectly fine then . Except that if that were me, I would not want to live like that and the likes of you would force me to.

That is one of the benfits of maid is it gives people more choice and a more dignified death. It reduces that trauma and impact of suicide discovery and aftermath on people. It also reduces the change of severe post morbidity post a failed suicide attempt. It also gives the dying person peace rather than the guilt and burden of killing themselves, knowing how that might affect their family. It gives everyone a chance to have open conversations about death and dying and to allow people to die with dignity and to have a peaceful death with family / friends present should they so choose. In Canada, the person can choose to self administer the medications or have a doctor administer it.

I live next door to a farm. The elderly dm of the farmer's wife ended up in a care home and in the last months of her life, begged her daughter to bring the gun to shoot her, every single time she visited.

It was very traumatic for the daughter who had to explain that it wasn't going to happen yet had to endure the pleading for several months until her dm passed away.

We need to openly discuss assisted dying rather than saying that it should not be allowed.

Just an addendum to the first post. The Ministry of Veteran's Affairs did a file review and found that one employee had sent four letters, including the one sent to the woman in the OP that were inappropriate. That individual was not providing Maid themselves, but suggesting it was an option they could consider. While the letters were inappropriate, the people they were sent to had not yet undergone any form of assessment or application for Maid. The employee has been suspended pending completion of the investigation.

@musingsinmidlife so clearly processes don't always get followed, but when things go wrong there's follow-up. I mean, if all legislation had to be proof against people involved doing the wrong thing we would never legislate for anything at all.