Canada Assisted Dying Shitshow

[antelopevalley]

Anyone else been following what is happening in Canada around assisted dying? Lots of issues with mentally ill and depressed people being helped to kill themselves and assisted dying in some cases being pushed on disabled people. Below is a screenshot from the latest awful story.

This is what worries me about assisted dying, how it is implemented in practice. I remember how awful the Liverpool Pathway was that was supposed to make dying patients' last days more comfortable, and instead led to people who may have recovered being starved to death.

I agree. And people are already arguing this on this thread.
The truth is able-bodied younger people think severely disabled people's lives are worthless. But not being able to care for yourself and not being able to talk does not mean your life is worthless.

And we're back to the argument that we cannot have assisted dying because of the disabled.

Look, nobody in the Netherlands is forcing disabled people to kill themselves. And yes, when someone out of the blue suggests to a disabled person that maybe they should want to die, that person needs to have the sky fall on them. But as the parent of a disabled person who also has serious mental illness, I want my DS to have the choice if he wants to take that path. Right now he's enjoying life and is fine, but why shouldn't he have the same choices as someone with terminal cancer? Why should disabled people of any kind not be allowed to make that choice even though the majority of their peers do not want to do so? What I'm seeing here is a perverse sort of ableism - just because a lot of people have very wrongheaded preconceptions about life with severe disability, you feel that nobody with or without disabilities, coping with physical or mental pain, should be allowed to have agency over their own lives. We need to tackle ableism, not stifle autonomy. Why is that so hard to handle?

I have every sympathy for @hopeisathingwithfeathersx because as mentioned my son has major mental health issues (BPD, PTSD and anxiety), is autistic and has serious physical health problems including constant physical pain which mean he is a wheelchair user. But I would not dream of patronising him by saying he should not have choice over what he does with his life. He's quite capable of standing up for himself and I will always advocate for him too.

I am not younger, btw. I am almost 55. And all the young people I know feel as I do, not because they view life with a disability as not worth living (most of them actually have disabilities, those are the circles I move in) but because they want autonomy.

Sadly, I think this could become the future. In Canada, poverty is increasingly becoming a reason for people to 'choose' euthanasia. Its a slippery slope.

Thing is it feels different when it's actually happening. All well and good to sat life wouldn't be worth living but your perspective might change. Consent should be now not you 40 years ago.

@pointythings But people on this thread are arguing that severely disabled people's lives are worthless and they would be better off dead.
Do you really not see a potential issue with euthanasia for disabled people when we already have people openly expressing those sentiments?

@Boomboom22 I have cared for people with progressive illnesses who say they do not want to live when they can no longer do x. Then when they can no longer do x - I am okay but I will not want to live when I cant do y. etc etc.
I agree people change their minds when they realise they do still get joy from life,

I am a firm believer in assisted dying although only in very limited circumstances, say where death is on the horizon within 6 months.

The Harold Shipman case took away some of the informal practices about giving too much morphine which were common in the past and has led to the under-medication of dying patients.

Brilliant palliative care is possible. My husband had the offer, a few weeks towards the end, of going into a hospice and I literally bit their hand off to take the opportunity as I saw how time-poor and busy the district nurses were and how pain meds were delayed because of problems with prescriptions and then delivering them, and I feared for his pain at the end. The hospice was the most amazing place and gently he died there, with no pain, no anxiety and 24 hour care. It was the fitting death for an amazing person and I'm glad we were able to give him that, I'm so sorry for those who had to suffer along with their loved ones. I've also had experience of home hospice with syringe drivers and the full palliative care options and that worked well as well. Relying on district nurses/GPs is grim.

I would like the option of assisted dying. So did my husband and it was a big source of worry that he wasn't able to know he had that option. In the end, we didn't need it, but it would have been a source of comfort to know, had things become unbearable, that it would have been possible.

I think dementia is a special case and very difficult to legislate around because by the time the person is so ill that assisted dying might be invoked, they have almost always lost capacity. I don't think we should stop ploughing ahead though with assisted dying for terminally ill people because of the dementia case though.

I am for assisted dying and better palliative care, they are not exclusive.

This who want to live have every right to life. Maid is for those who personally themselves dont want to live in that state indefinitely. I am not assuming anyone’s life is worth living but for those who do not feel their life is worth living due to the severity and impact of their disabilities and their lack of quality of life, maid is an option for them. Maid allows people to change their minds if they wish to.

the point you are missing is personal agency. Maid isn’t doing something to people, it is giving people choice over their own lives. It is respecting that people with disabilities are adults who can make decisions for themselves. If they want to live and they find meaning in life, then they can continue to live every day to the fullest. Maid is only for those who personally don’t want to live and want to end their suffering.

My family member was disabled as a child. Despite her disabilities, she continued to find meaning and enjoyment despite her pain and suffering until she was 90. Then she had a stroke and lost her independence, lost all the things that had meaning and enjoyment for her. For three years she spend every day crying and longing for death. Pleading with God to take her, to end her misery and suffering, to let her die. She had lived a great life and it was awful for her and family that her last three years were pure misery and suffering and a desire for death each and every day. She hated every single minute of her life. Hated that after everything she had done and accomplished as a person with a disability that all her independence and agency and autonomy was gone. Hated that all control was taken from her. Hated being reliant on others. Hated being in pain. Hated losing her communication skills. Hated needing to be take care of and being unable to do anything for herself. She hated what that stroke reduced her to and that she had to continue to live day in and day out despite only wanting to die.

We loved her and selfishly in some ways we’re glad for more time but the trauma that caused her to lose everything and for family to watch someone else want death for three years could all have been avoided. I don’t know if she would have chosen maid had it been available, but I wish she had had that choice.

The Harold Shipman case took away some of the informal practices about giving too much morphine which were common in the past and has led to the under-medication of dying patients.

I agree, and I think unofficial forms of Maid were actually a lot commoner in the past than a lot of conservatives want to believe.

That said, I do think that safeguarding needs to be bloody tight on this issue, and I am not sure I trust Canada--this is a country that has shown a tendency to fall down groupthink rabbitholes in the recent past.

I don't think that any government starting the consultation on assisted dying by looking first at the terminally ill, is a slippery slope. It is a logical start from which discussion can expand into other potentially relevant conditions. We probably won't get it right first time, but corrective iterations are not impossible.

I also note the emotive use of "harvesting" vs "donation". They are two sides of the same coin in this case but only one word implies patient consent. To me, it makes sense to donate viable organs rather than chuck them in the bin. The argument that people who can, will pay to get the organs, is irrelevant in the UK because 1, it's illegal; 2, everyone goes on a transplant list and 3, any surgeon doing illegal transplants will go to jail. Note the ongoing UK case where two people were arrested after bringing in another person who was going to be used as an organ donor for their child. I believe it was medical personnel who reported them to the police.

Requesting, then later rescinding, an assisted dying request is understandable. It means that the one person, who best knows how they feel at the time, is making the decision. No one is saying that once you make the decision you are locked into it forever. That person is exercising their choice and is free to change their mind at any time, the caveat being, if they have the mental capacity to do so!

By not giving people the choice, we are actually enabling a two tiered system where people who can afford to, and meet the conditions, will go to Dignitas. The rest and their loved ones will be left to suffer.

@logicisall very well said. I would also add that for those people who cannot afford Dignitas and who have no option for a dignified end in the UK, suicide is a risk - and the impact of that on a family is profound (speaking from experience here, too.)

@hopeisathingwithfeathersx I vehemently disagree with anyone who says that a disabled person's life is by definition not worth living, that should be obvious given my own experience. However, you are once again playing the zero sum game and it's wearying. Yes, we need to change how disabled people are perceived. That means government interventions which will allow fuller participation of disabled people everywhere so that they are visible and the reality of their lives becomes commonplace. That should include invisible disabilities too.

But none of that means we should not also support people who no longer wish to live, and dramatically improve palliative care. We should be ambitious enough to want to improve things along every avenue and assisted dying is a part of that for those who want to have that choice.

I found this a balanced and well researched article that puts MAID Canada into a global context. The actual figures for mental health sufferers using MAID in Belgium and The Netherlands is interesting, as is the conclusions of the writer.
MAID Canada mental health law

@logicisall can you link directly to the article? The current link just goes to the front page and there's about a million articles there.

Sorry, I thought I had linked to the actual page but try this
If it doesn't work then google

www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-maid-canada-mental-health-law

The search results also have interesting responses.

It's a good article and it definitely sets out all the issues. Having read it it does feel to me like they haven't got the criteria for assisted dying in cases of mental ill health right in Canada and need to revisit those. The stats about 90% of MH patients in Holland being turned down are also heartening.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/matt-hancock-maid-canada-assisted-dying-b2244229.html

"Meanwhile, Britain’s disabled people are facing the dilemma of whether to heat, eat or ventilate. Why are they not focussing on that? Medical Assistance in Dying sounds comfortingly bland, but there’s nothing bland about the consequences. They are chilling. As a disabled Briton myself, the prospect of something like Canada’s law here scares the life out of me".

No one is being forced to commit suicide, it is giving people the choice and with safeguards to prevent coercion.

@MechanicaHound again with the zero sum bullshit.

The answer is we do both. We look at how our society runs, where it fails disabled people and we sort that out. It will cost. Taxes will rise. Tories will scream. Tough shit, I don't care.

We also legislate for assisted dying for people who want it and need it.

It really is that simple.