Canada Assisted Dying Shitshow

[antelopevalley]

Anyone else been following what is happening in Canada around assisted dying? Lots of issues with mentally ill and depressed people being helped to kill themselves and assisted dying in some cases being pushed on disabled people. Below is a screenshot from the latest awful story.

This is what worries me about assisted dying, how it is implemented in practice. I remember how awful the Liverpool Pathway was that was supposed to make dying patients' last days more comfortable, and instead led to people who may have recovered being starved to death.

I completely agree with is also. Lots of people who commit suicide in, quite frankly some horrific ways, really could have benefited from the option of a dignified, easier and less disruptive death.

But you don’t have to use the service do you?

WE should be allowed to choose assisted dying.

It is a basic human right to be able to choose to die, in my opinion. We urgently need Assisted Suicide to be made legal in the UK. If and when I want to end my life, i don't understand why anyone else should have the power to deny me.

I see an assumption on the thread that an assisted death is pain free . Unfortunately, that is not necessarily the case and research shows that patients killed by lethal drugs are at risk of incredibly painful and distressing complications:

The Canadian Association of MAiD Assessors and Providers acknowledges that patients who ingest assisted suicide drugs can experience burning, nausea, vomiting and regurgitation, especially if the patient is experiencing difficulty swallowing large volumes of liquid. Nausea, oesophagitis, gastritis, severe dehydration or pathology of the gastrointestinal tract likely interfere with drug absorption.3 This is reflected in the data published by US states such as Oregon, where annual complication rates have been as high as 14.8% and patients are reported to have experienced difficulty swallowing or drug regurgitation, seizures and have even regained consciousness after ingesting the ‘lethal’ drugs.9

academic.oup.com/bmb/article/142/1/15/6580517?login=false

Quite frankly they need better access to MH resources because studies have repeatedly shown that people who attempt suicide and survive rarely try it again: www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survival/

@Suzi888 The point would be to avoid suffering and to keep the patient as comfortable as possible at the end of their life.

I think that's what we all want. See my link above, lethal drugs also cause pain and suffering. Unfortunately there are few (any?) ways to leave this world that are completely free of pain and suffering. We all just want the best for our loved ones and ourselves.

Seeing my loved one have her life taken away by cancer far too young, sitting at her bedside day and night for 2 weeks certainly wasn't the easy option for us as relatives. Yes there were moments of distress and breakthrough pain. When that happened. Sedation and pain medications were increased until she was peaceful again. See above, I'm not convinced that a lethal ingestion would have resulted in less suffering.

We cared for her, cleaned her, kissed her cheek and surrounded her with love until the end. We were attentive to her needs and changes in her condition, alerted nurses when things seemed wrong. The nurses cared for her with compassion and humanity and preserved her dignity. I empathise with the idea of "putting them out of their misery" and ultimately the urge comes from the same place of compassion. But no, it was not the doctors' place to shorten her life. Their job was to treat her pain to the greatest extent possible and ease her passing.

Just because you want to continue to live, doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a mental health issue. It can actually just be a simple choice or preference.

The beginning of this year saw a much loved relative diagnosed with an aggressive cancer that was already affecting their mobility and speech, they said they wanted to go to sleep and not wake up, they died three weeks later, they spent their time worrying about their family. Last week our much loved dog was euthanised, she was 15 and had a tumour in her jaw that had grown rapidly over three weeks, I held her, she was not stressed, she died within a minute. We should have that choice and opportunity. My relative may not have taken that option in the end but it would have given them some control and that would have given a small amount of relief.

Also, euthanasia is not only being practiced on terminally ill people. It's also being carried out on people with disabilities or mental health issues. See this case of a 22 year old woman with PTSD who was killed by doctors recently in Belgium.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11322105/How-assisted-suicide-23-year-old-woman-created-national-scandal-Belgium.html

@DomesticShortHair unfortunately ingesting lethal drugs doesn't guarantee a comfortable or dignified death.

A wide variety of lethal drug combinations are used for people who want their life ended, and the prevalence of complications and failures in intentionally ending life suggest that ‘assisted dying’ applicants are at risk of distressing deaths.

academic.oup.com/bmb/article/142/1/15/6580517?login=false

A medically aided assisted death for those that want it and are terminally ill can’t come quickly enough, as far as I’m concerned. It’s a crucial piece of legislation that would mark a civilised society that values human compassion and the relief of immense suffering.

The suggestion that it should be requested and not offered seems a sensible proposal - indicates it is the wishes of the person and maintains their control. As to whether the drugs provide a pain-free death - I can only speak to having seen pets out down - outside of this I imagine research is slim and very likely biased one way or another. However assuming it is true - I would imagine that is because research into drugs that provide this has not been carried out and developments in this area have been non-existent because it is currently illegal. Regardless it should still be the persons choice. I also don’t agree it is not a medical intervention to assist people. While I don’t think this should be put on doctors but that professionals (obviously medically trained) should be specifically trained for this role and be provided support (counselling etc) to assist them.

Following Dutch protocols on assisted death, after administering of the drugs:

-Death takes up to 30 hours in one third of cases
-Death takes up to 7 days in 4% of cases
-failure to induce coma 1.4%
-vomiting 10%
-reemergence from coma 2%

With the possibility of the patient being conscious and suffering intensely throughout.

https://assets.nationbuilder.com/australiancarealliance/pages/139/attachments/original/1551911256/Sinmyeeett_al-2019-Anaesthesia.pdf?1551911256

@Hercisback , the trouble with bastard dementia is that beyond the early stages, or even very early on, people often don’t/won’t believe that there’s anything wrong with them - because at any given moment they can’t remember that they can’t remember anything - if that makes sense.

It was very early on that my DM’s short term memory was shot to pieces. It only dawned on me (with sinking heart) that it was dementia, not just old-age forgetfulness, when she phoned her bank about something - she’d always been very clued up about finances - and could not remember, literally the instant she’d put the phone down, what they’d said.

So much zero sum thinking on this thread by the antis - just because one country is doing it badly, that doesn't mean that it can't be done well (and is). My grandmother had an assisted suicide in the Netherlands. All procedures were followed. She was 100% compos mentis. There was no inheritance. She just wanted the pain to end.

@chella2 I respect your consistent position - you're a forced birther too, so I'm not surprised you want to stop people from having control over the end of their lives. If that is what someone wants and if there is a clinician legally able and willing to help, what business is it of yours? My life is nothing to do with you.

And yes, things can go wrong in euthanasia as everywhere else. I find it blackly hilarious that you think it is worse for someone to suffer pain during assisted suicide, which then ends in death, than for someone to suffer for weeks and months because they can't have an assisted suicide.

Lastly I take issue with the idea that people with mental illness do not ever have the capacity to take decisions about their lives. If you look at the legislation around mental health and deprivation of liberty in the UK, you will see it is not that simple. Even someone on a section is allowed to refuse medication, and a further section is needed to force them to take medication. The clinicians imposing this would have to prove that the person is not able to consent or refuse consent. It is horribly infantilising to assume that someone can't make a decision just because they have a mental illness.

Assisted dying is badly needed, because ultimately not having that law means people will either suffer or take the law into their own hands, usually with the help of loving relatives who will then be risking jail. Quantity of life is far, far less important than quality of life.

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER I'm more than aware of this having nursed grandparents through it. That's exactly why this law is needed, so that when you reach the point of no return, your family know your wishes and can act accordingly.
Legally fraught with all sorts of unintended consequences. But currently we have the unintentional consequence of better medical care resulting in people being kept alive far longer than they would ever wish.

In my country we have assisted dying. It's just a question that was asked .. it's a sensationalist headline

@maddy68 why was the question asked? It's not a sensationalist headline. It's insane.

I am in favour of assisted dying but it should never be offered and should have to be asked for.

As for people with MH issues they are obviously suffering when they ask, the issue there is can there ever be relief to their suffering if fully treated. Some people regardless of the best treatment offered can never fully recover from past trauma. Many though not all addicts are self medicating.

@pointythings not true at all - I'm a a feminist and pro choice and bodily autonomy. As I've said I believe it's ethically permissible for people to end their own lives if their own volition, but not to make someone else participate in murder.

I didn't say anything about people with mental health problems not having capacity to make decisions on their life. I do think it was wrong for doctors and family to collaborate in the killing of a young woman with an entirely treatable mental health condition, because she had the possibility of going on to live a full and happy life and now she is dead. As someone who has suffered from suicidal ideation in the past , I'm very glad no one did that to me.

@Hercisback , in the absence of any such law here, dh and I have added very specific instructions to our Health and Welfare powers of attorney, to state in which circumstances we emphatically do not want any life-saving or life-prolonging treatment. We are confident that adult dds will respect these.

This, at least, is something everyone can do.

@pointythings and I don't want anyone to suffer at end of life. I've repeatedly said that I support doctors administering potentially lethal doses of pain relieving medication , with death as a side effect , not an intention. For me this is a critical ethical distinction. I appreciate that others disagree, but all any of us want is to avoid unnecessary human suffering.

@chella2 if it wasn't you on the Heidi Crowter threads then I apologise for misremembering.

If we had excellent healthcare and valued disabled people I would support assisted dying.
Without that, I think we would just have the same situation as in Canada. People choosing to die in chronic pain because they can't get proper pain relief. People choosing to die of mental health issues because they are waiting still for mental health treatment.
This is eugenics. It is killing people rather than giving them medical treatment.