Canada Assisted Dying Shitshow

[antelopevalley]

Anyone else been following what is happening in Canada around assisted dying? Lots of issues with mentally ill and depressed people being helped to kill themselves and assisted dying in some cases being pushed on disabled people. Below is a screenshot from the latest awful story.

This is what worries me about assisted dying, how it is implemented in practice. I remember how awful the Liverpool Pathway was that was supposed to make dying patients' last days more comfortable, and instead led to people who may have recovered being starved to death.

I'm totally against any law which makes participating in the killing of another human being legal.

Doctors should be able to administer as much painkiller as necessary to relieve pain in terminally ill patients, even if the side effect is to bring forward death, but the intent should be to relieve pain not to cause death.

Disabled, ill and vulnerable people should be cared for with dignity and kindness. It's an absolute disgrace to our society that people cannot trust that this would happen and would rather die.

I'm totally against any law which makes participating in the killing of another human being legal.

So you are campaigning for the military to be abolished, presumably?

I'm in Australia but not Victoria. My child is explicitly excluded for assisted dying even though they have a lifelimiting illness which is not going to be pleasant to die from. His intellectual impairment excludes him as he is seen as having impaired decision making and we are not legally allowed to make that decision for him.

I'm on the fence about it honestly.

@chella2 the amount of painkillers required would kill a person. Someone dying from cancer is horrific, it's not like the movies. Most are essentially rotting, with their body shutting down. It's painful and total loss of dignity.

My mum was facing a horrific death from uterine cancer, it would her spread throughout every part of her body. The loss of dignity and quality of life was all she was concerned about, she was not afraid to die. She was already in incredible pain. I'm still grateful for her she died from an unexpected heart attack shortly after diagnosis. I knew she had been discussing with her doctor the morphine requirements she would have access to in palliative care.- this was before assisted dying was legal but still happened everywhere/everyday with the right doctor and right meds combination.

These bills give people the right to choose when facing the end of a life limiting illness. It's a choice both for those who go down the path of assisted dying and those doctor who support it (at least it is in Australia).

I think that can only be justified in self defence.

@LovelaceBiggWither sincerely, my thoughts are with you. I can't imagine the position you are in.

I know what it's like to watch a loved one die of cancer. That's why I support compassionate, respectful end of life care that maintains dignity and comfort.

I know that at a certain level the painkillers will bring about death, but my point is that the doctors' intentions are to relieve pain only. Death is a side effect.

We shouldn't ask doctors to deliberately kill people. Their purpose and duty is to treat and heal, not to kill.

I think it's abhorrent that it's not available in the UK. And with very strict safeguards to anyone who requests it. In the case of mental health people seeking assisted dying as an alternative to committing suicide would probably save lives because of all interventions that would be necessary before the medication was given.

Why shouldn’t those who opt for assisted dying be able to donate their organs, why should they be excluded in their organs are either clinically suitable for transplant, or suitable for medical science?

Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain and Canada all have far better state provided medical care than the UK, so a bit strange that you’re then claiming that recipients of organ donations pay for them, what with that being false.

A freind recently died from cancer.

His pain was thankfully well managed, pain was fairly low down on his priorities.

How do you suggest someone maintains their dignity when they are doubly incontinent and complete strangers are stripping them naked to clean them?

Why should he have to put up with feeling sick 24/7 and vomiting several times a day?

Why should he have been made to sit and watch both his legs die and start to rott away? Whats kind, or dignified about watching your own body rott away?

Pain relief doesn’t remove discomfort, he was skin and bone for weeks before he died, every movement caused discomfort, he was so thin no matter what blankets he had and the temperature of the room he was always bitterly cold.

On another note, enjoy living in a country that doesn’t have any military, even if we only factor in how many people will become unemployed over night.

I totally agree, some aren’t getting the the crux of the thread though. People would be making a desperate decision to end their lives, that could be avoidable with the necessary treatment.

@Roselilly36 no one is responding to that point because it’s untrue.
as a retired nurse I’ve only heard of obscure treatments not being available, plenty of available drugs, no shortage there.

Some people with disabilities are doubly incontinent their whole life. That doesn't mean they should be killed. It doesn't have to be a stranger changing or washing them - it could a loved one or a known carer. In any case, yes, personal care can be done kindly and in a way that maintains dignity. Of course it can!

We can certainly discuss how to keep people as comfortable as possible. Up to the point of keeping them completely unconscious where they wouldn't be aware of cold, pain or anything other sensation, if necessary and desired.

On the other point, I think war and violence rarely helps anything - just creating more sorrow and pain for both the perpetrators and the victims. The more we can find nonviolent resolutions the better.

Carers are strangers, if having a carer clean you is so dignifying, why don’t well able bodied people not opt for it? So now we’re also suggesting that either family members should be unemployed, or people should have to sit and wait after being incontinent until a family member is home. And no, being cleaned by a family member doesn’t maintain your dignity either. Why shouldn’t people be able to opt for assisted dying, why do you think you should get to choose what medical treatment other people have access to?

So you would like people to be placed in an induced coma in ICU, you are aware that being in an induced coma doesn’t take away your awareness.

Carers aren't strangers - not in my experience. My family member has much loved carers, some over many years, who do a wonderful job.

If you have experienced different carers every day it's probably down to pay and conditions. We desperately need more care workers. They aren't paid enough but are getting better training these days than they used to for what is an incredibly important and valuable job. I'd like to see much better pay and conditions so that more people would choose to do this wonderful work.

Sometimes family members do give up work to care for disabled children, spouses, parents etc. They may or may not do personal care depending on the person. That's a decision each family makes as to what would best.

And I’ll ask again. If having a stranger clean you is dignified, why aren’t well able bodied people opting for it? And again, why do you think you should choose what treatment someone else is able to access?

There are times when I've needed personal care. I was grateful to those who did this with kindness.

We all need personal care as babies and children, and may need it again at different times in our life. Of course we'd all rather be able to do it ourselves, but if we need the help it can be done in a respectful and kind way.

I think your idea that there can be no dignity for disabled people who require personal care is rather dangerous. There is a great problem with how disabled and older people are seen. Euthanasia conveys the message that such people are a burden, better off dead, instead of focusing on ways to improve their quality of life.

The best medical treatment is to be discussed between a patient and their medical team.

Of course individuals are free to end their own life. I don't agree with asking someone else to participate, or with the worldview that killing someone is preferable to funding compassionate, dignified care and improving treatments,quality of life for people with illness and disabilities, mental health challenges etc.

I think the point OP is trying to make is that the authorities in Canada are using the assisted dying laws to justify not bothering to assist properly disabled and elderly people. I agree with euthanasia in principle but I don't trust that our government wouldn't also see it as a potential money saving policy. Canada are also rolling the right to die out to those with mental illnesses. How can this be right?

This. I agree completely.

So as expected, completely unwilling to answer the questions and also contradicted yourself.

I want to read this later...thank you for bringing this OP - so many ethical considerations.

@Simonjt where is the contraction? What is the unanswered question?

Able bodied people do receive personal care, when they need it. Why is that hard for you to accept or understand? Yes, it can be done with kindness and dignity. What makes you think it can't?

Haven't you ever had medical treatment that involved people seeing your genitalia? Women have this regularly with smears, childbirth etc etc . It can be done roughly or in an embarrassing or degrading way. It can also be done in a way that maintains your dignity, even when someone has their arm inside your body, never mind just washing the outside of it.

I don't decide what medical treatment people have - that's between then and their doctor and of course they can also refuse treatment, as my loved one did.

Killing people is not a medical treatment - that is murder and rightly illegal, as far as I am concerned.

“We can certainly discuss how to keep people as comfortable as possible. Up to the point of keeping them completely unconscious where they wouldn't be aware of cold, pain or anything other sensation, if necessary and desired.”

^Yes my father’s last two weeks were spent like this and I can assure you there are lucid moments. It would have been his worst nightmare and we should absolutely be allowed to die if we want to. There was no point in him lingering around suffering for two weeks.

@chella2 Where on earth is the point in the existence you describe?
Does quality of life enter your argument? We don’t do that to animals. “Your keeping them alive for you, not for them”.

People are not free to end their own lives at all-
only by hanging or overdose or jumping off a cliff whilst physically able. You would have to be well enough to do this before you are ready to die and how awful for loved ones.

Why have you lumped disabled people in with the terminally ill. Two separate issues.

Assisted dying should be a palliative care option. We let far too many people suffer in ways they shouldn’t. Checks and balances needed to ensure it’s not offered/performed inappropriately. Don’t believe everything you read in the daily mail.

I have a relative who had open heart surgery in their 90s and made a brilliant recovery (also
got a hip replacement in their 90s too) so it’s not far fetched. Yes this was in USA but their QOL was extended just as much as their life.

It’s very case by case, even in advanced age,
for these decisions.