Thread 1 - Lifeboat Muster Point for TalkExiles

[Kucinghitam]

Gather here all ye refugees from the foundering ship of JTT, if ye be in need of "How the heck do I format my post?" "Why can't I edit my typos?" "What do those acronyms mean?" and most importantly, "Where is everybody that I used to know?"

Or just to chat randomly.

BTW I have also made a new Muster thread, in case we get to 1000 while I'm in the lab today.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4693132-lifeboat-muster-point-for-talkexiles-thread-2

Thanks, Cyan. I was looking in Chat...

TBH I think it could do with being a men-free zone, at least for a while but I'm not thread monitor.

Cross-post with Kuc - I meant the women's rights thread, not muster.

@TassLeHoff Just caught up with last night's shenanigans, and wanted to say I hope you stick around too. People will have forgotten about it in a few days.

Just read Tass's posts from yesterday, Tass mate, way to not read a room and an object lesson of when a hole stop digging! But like Dru said it'll blow over. So stick around fella you are one of the good guys.

Good guys don't buy sex then justify it to themselves by saying women actually love it. And "I spoke to two women thirty years ago and that totally overrides everything aaaaallll these women are telling me now because it assuages my guilt for buying a human being when I was lonely and sad. And also it is now information in my superior Man Head which is clearly better than information coming from any silly little Women Heads." You're not one of the good guys mate. You think you are, you set a lot of store by it. But you're really fucking not.

Honest to the Goddess my eyes have rolled out of my head.

And it won't "blow over". There are spreadsheets.

I totally agree that there's nothing good about males buying the sexual services of women. It's just wrong and nothing will convince me otherwise. So I wouldn't call a sex-buyer a good guy.

OTOH I disagree with hounding out people we disagree with, requiring purity or uniformity of opinions, etc. I'd much prefer an all-out battle of words/ideas in which everybody makes their case and hopefully people learn something from it. Some new swear-words, if nothing else.

So in other words, on balance I'd much rather people stick around (despite the brickbats) and read stuff and learn and all that.

While you’re here @WomaninBoots can I just say how refreshing it was to be part of that discussion last night? I’ve discussed the subject a number of times in the past but mostly it’s been with people who believe SWIW with the ‘empowering’ argument invariably emerging and I end up wanting to bang my head against the wall and scream. I really enjoyed being able to talk openly about the subject with people with similar views.

The chances of Hoff and some of the other patronising, head-patting men that seem to think we're all just a bunch of silly women getting ourselves a bit upset actually listening and learning anything are slim to none I'd say.

I'm not requesting purity or uniformity of opinion. I'm requesting arrogant douchebags who actually want to be good guys maybe find the fucking humility within themselves to listen to women. Women who don't agree with him. Women whose views and experience DON'T make him feel better about himself. Hoff had no reasoned arguments to defend his position. He just had dismissal and a patronising superiority complex.

Plus I don't see what is so wrong with wanting a consensus that coerced sex/rape is bad anyway. Especially, maybe, on a feminist board.

Probably wise. I couldn't believe what I was reading last night, and will certainly be in 'read-only' mode there for a while.

Haven’t read the other thread you’re talking about, so I may be either going off-topic or repeating what’s been said there here. But I went to a really interesting meeting about the Nordic model a few weeks ago, that included a talk from a woman who used to be in prostitution and is now an outreach worker trying to help other women get free of it. Her background was horrendous, really abusive and awful. I won’t go into detail as she asked us not to repeat any of it. But she talked a lot about how, when she was involved, she was always very defensive about it being her choice and she would lie through her back teeth to maintain that fiction, both to herself and others, because it was the only way she could retain some illusion of control and dignity. And both she and another counsellor said that, having spoken to hundreds of women in prostitution, they had never met one single woman who was GENUINELY prostituting herself out of choice rather than desperation and/or fucked up values and self-worth resulting from a background of abuse, poverty and addiction. Not one.

I also recommend “Paid For” by Rachel Moran- a memoir written by a former prostituted woman- which is very good on the myth of choice and the happy hooker. She basically says that women who say “sex work is legitimate work” don’t really believe that, they just believe that there is a fundamental difference between them and women who end up there. She doesn’t believe that, and neither do I. Unless and until prostitution no longer exists, it’s only luck and circumstance keeping all women safe.

Just to add, getting your arse handed to you is an essential rite of passage on MN isn't it? (I've had it happen to me, and to this day I hardly dare post anything in AIBU).

Thanks for the recommendation. Also, I think @ExiledElsie talked about one of those meetings. I'd be really interested in attending one.

I also don't agree with the views that were expressed on the feminism thread. However, I have some sympathy with the feeling when you really get the message that you've got this one wrong. It can be humiliating. I remember when I started to peak but was still a bit "let's all be kind", which I ventured to opine in a feminism thread. Never forgot it, but it completely changed my opinion over the few days it went on. Sometimes we go to town and bring our ill considered opinions out for an airing and end up finding out what people who have actually thought properly about it think and end up changing forever.

Having said that, I do find I can also be quite contemptuous of people who don't get it on various feminism topics, even people I formerly liked. I don't think there's a single comedian, for example, that I can tolerate these days.

"Just to add, getting your arse handed to you is an essential rite of passage on MN isn't it?"

I definitely got a strong vibe of "tread very fucking carefully if you're a bloke talking about anything on the FSG boards" a few days ago, especially if you are new to mumsnet. 😂

Not a criticism, I'm conscious of my privilege and getting handed my arse on mumsnet is about as bad as it gets for me.

Same, but I think tread very fucking carefully is fair enough in a women's space. My tongue once or twice got the better of me in t'other place, wouldn't want it to happen here!

it assuages my guilt for buying a human being when I was lonely and sad.

At what stage of "I'm feeling lonely" does phoning home, looking for events to go to, sticking the TV or radio on, chatting on the internet, going to a bar etc etc turn into buying another human body so you can have some sexual pleasure at their expense.

Tass might be better off on the old feminist thread as for some reason accepting men can become women seems to go along with thinking abuse of women's bodies is a valid career.

I personally think the reason they go together is because neither is sure that women are important people in their own right rather than in relation to someone else and what they can use or appropriate.

Have to agree with that, AFAIC on feminism threads I'm there mostly to learn and to try to understand. I thought that Tass's first post was being honest yesterday and if he'd have stuck with the original anecdote and then admitted that his behaviour all those years ago was wrong then he might have been a lot better received. I've known him online for years and despite his posts yesterday (and many many disagreements) I still think he's fundamentally an OK person and I hope will learn from and reflect on the reactions to his post.

As far as prostitution is concerned Sir Terry Pratchett summed it up for me when he wrote:

"Evil begins when you start treating people like things"

and treating people like commodities to be bought, sold and ultimately discarded falls under that.

I blame Paul Simon!

for Biko?