Why are Indian & Chinese kids attaining much higher than white/black/Pakistani children?

[Widilo]

I’ve been thinking this over today. DS recently went to a Kumon class (if you trawl through Mn threads over the years this is generally much hated on MN). All the kids coming out were Indian or Chinese, all the kids in her group Indian or Chinese. A smattering of black children and 1 white child (DS). DS won’t be going back (it was a trial class) because it just seemed to be repetitive rote learning of hundreds of sums, but clearly this is working somewhere along the line?

stats linked here www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/11-to-16-years-old/gcse-results-attainment-8-for-children-aged-14-to-16-key-stage-4/latest

Is it cricket?

Who mentioned Pakistani adults on this thread?

www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/unemployment-and-economic-inactivity/unemployment/latest

Where did you get 4 in 5 were unemployed? On a UKIP poster?

I work for a company run entirely by Sikhs. When I went for the interview I was interviewed by a young lad who I thought was maybe 25, certainly no younger than 23. Turns out he was an 18yo student on his work placement whose dad has a construction business they work with.

I found out afterwards that he was just meant to be sitting in with my boss, as he'd be supporting me and my colleagues with various tasks going forward. However, with my boss running late he took the initiative and started the interview himself.

Being interviewed by a teenager would usually seem almost laughable but this guy was so mature. Had been helping in his dad's business since 12yo and was extremely knowledgeable about the industry. Even had his Class 1 and Class 2 truck licenses so he could cover on that side. No doubt his large beard made him seem older but I genuinely think it was mostly his maturity, knowledge, and how unfazed he seemed interviewing somebody over ten years his senior.

Similar story with another young lad (21yo) who I trained up. His parents had a commercial skip business in addition to finance jobs and he had his own clients who he dealt with. On his breaks he was calling businesses and arranging drop offs/collections and chasing payments etc.

It's a stark contrast to a lot of our students who can barely manage to cook beans on toast or make their bed.

...so students aren’t interviewed for their degree course before they are offered a place?

Apart from mature entry medicine and iirc pharmacy (and maybe other mature entry courses) no.

I think that's a huge drawback of the British application and admission process. It can put potential applicants off, and I don't see how it can possibly be immune from conscious and unconscious bias on the part of the interviewer.

TruckerBarbie

This is a very interesting and useful post. Thank you.

Agree with what you say about trades and £45k, and valuable to hear about profitable niche businesses you can set.

Redbigbananafeet

But aren't you just stating the pitfalls of competitiveness when you say that you aren't prepared to push the last 20% and that your son is happy with improving on his personal best? Taking the competitive angle to its logical extreme, the personal best would never be satisfying.

There must be many reasons why you don't want to push him all the way, and those reasons could be unpicked and examined and found to tie in with values which obviously matter to you.

But the question for me, increasingly, is how much do those values really matter. I see them as being tied in with self-actualisation and the notion that at the peak of existence is expressing yourself and all your interests and sense of identity. Increasingly, getting older, I'm thinking that it is easier to go through life forgetting about this and focusing on earning money and then doing something worthwhile with it, as well as surviving.

But that idea runs contrary to all the psychology ideas of the twentieth century. Nobody can blame families in Britain for not being pushy and not heavily controlling out children's interests - like screen-time - because it isn't the wisdom we've been brought up with, and the fear is that children may be harmed by being pushed. They probably wouldn't be if the idea was repackaged as working hard - which is what many adults spend their life doing, anyway.

With regards screen time... My sil let's her dc have every device & game going, tik tok, Minecraft etc.. She says it's a social thing & she doesn't want her kids left out! Its the opposite of social, they are constantly on devices, don't even look up to say hello to visitors... You don't see that in other cultures particularly the high performing ones mentioned on the thread..

@Snowqueen22 my DS has quite a lot of screen time but he still works very hard and is doing extremely well at school. It's a very social thing, he plays with his friends and during GCSEs they were going through past papers whilst online gaming. He got a full set of 9s.

@Amboseli I totally get that it's a social thing, my dc like their devices too.. It's just more of a western thing though, the really high achieving kids don't seem to be as attached to the screens as I'd imagine their time is strictly managed.

TikTok is the worst. I think too much time on it ruins concentration skills. I'm not sure how true this is but I heard that in China, TikTok shows kids people achieving things and in the west, it shows pranks and stupid dances.

@mathanxiety
agree.

Tik tok, you tube, they are all pointless.. My sil says tech is the way of the future & doesn't limit time.. But surfing YouTube & tik tok in your childhood is not going to make one the next Bill Gates..

@Snowqueen22 true. I don't believe in being too strict though, they are still children and should have fun even if it is gaming. As long as they know schoolwork comes first.

This in bucket loads!!!!

It comes down to what you expose your children to. A strong work ethic will always get you ahead in life, always. Whether that's working at your studies, profession or relationships. I see so many teens that are apathetic about their own futures with parents that have a very laid back approach to their child's future.

I know I've guided my DC to aspire from when they could listen and talk. There's never been the option of shrugging your shoulders and not at least knowing vaguely what you're going to do, whether it's work or further study. From my experience, these conversations are prevelant and Indian and in Chinese families. It's actually seen as odd if you DON'T do this with your children.

What is 'middle class' anymore though? I absolutely agree that there are many white families that prioritise aspirations but in my experience, they are the minority. I see it every single day of my life with my own clients, the peers of my 14 year old DC, the experiences of friends and family in their careers and I even hear it from the predominantly white teachers of all 3 of my DC.

Very interesting thread.

I'm White British, DH white 'other'. I come from a privileged (relatively wealthy) background but my parents both valued education and expected me to do well. There was no question about not going to university for example. Generations of one side of my family have gone to university so that was what I did.

I have the same attitude towards my children. I expect them to get good grades and do well. However I cannot pay for private school, they have to navigate the state system.

I maintain its easier to study now when all support systems are in place than do what DH did and leave it until his 30s. I think DH sees the value in this attitude.

I don't consider myself overly pushy but equally DC need to understand if they want a certain lifestyle they need to earn it.

I see many white friends who do not have this attitude. Their children aren't pushed and they don't strive for a grammar school education. Oxford university is seen as not for them for example. I think it's a shame.

Perhaps it's also subconscious white privilege. They don't have to fight to get ahead because the system doesn't work against them as a white person.

@Diverseopinions - kinda agree. I have 1 kid that wants to be a ninja warrior. I don’t mind if that is really what he wants to do professionally BUT -

I need to make sure he is aware of the chance of succeeding in this (highly competitive). Where is he going to get the money for the gym memberships needed to train? What happens if he trains for it and doesn’t make it? What is the expected earning potential even if he does make it - would he be happy with that lifestyle?

or he could become an accountant or software developer and train to be a ninja in his spare time… maybe he can work for a ninja gym business (which would need people with book-keeping and software skills)… or become an engineer and design ninja courses… or do physiotherapy or study physical education. I suppose it depends on his natural skills and what he wants his lifestyle to be like - if he wants to buy a house in a similar area to where we live now, he will have to earn quite a lot (we were lucky to buy earlier before a rise in prices). We have to give kids good information (about likely salary and lifestyle) to help them make decisions about jobs (rather than just saying ‘do what you love’).

I think that there is so much emphasis in the UK about the "idyllic childhood".. Every parent has different expectations.. My dc do a little bit extra work that I give them after school, they like reading, lego & to be honest they don't have much time for that with their extracurriculars.. Every evening at least one kid from their class rings the doorbell still in uniform looking for one of the dc... Their after school is playing on the road & the parents see that as very important... To me it isn't, my dc love their extracurriculars & like to cosy up with books/lego in their downtime.. They meet up with plenty of friends at the extracurriculars so I don't feel & most importantly they down feel their missing out by not being on the road after school..

I’m puzzled you think certain schools are still favoured. Or that personal statements matter much. There’s been quite a lot in the news in the last year or so showing the opposite.

^just to clarify I mean personal statements filled with ‘rich kid’ activities don’t seem to have any impact these days.

Op I'm originally from India, have lived in India for a few years, have many Indian friends with kids and I have a few thoughts on this:

1. In India there is no strong social welfare net and poverty is in your face. There are two main routes to wealth, and a comfortable life: 1. Running a successful business or 2. Education and getting a professional job.

The people who go into business or run their family business you are unlikely to see here. They stay in India. The people who have been coming to the UK for the last twenty years (so whose kids you'll encounter in school now) will be mostly the ones who have studied hard, got a professional job (usually either in engineering or medicine) and have come to the UK either through their job or to study (and then stayed on to work).

1. The school system in India (that the parents would have experienced) is pretty hard, very demanding and strict. There's a lot of learning and a lot.of.homework from a very early age on. Not just rote learning but that's a part of it. Most people are very clear. You don't study and you don't work to find your calling or anything like that. You study to get a good job and you get a good job to earn a living (or to find a suitable partner...)

1. Indian society (especially my generation) is very ambitious and quite materialistic. Status means a lot.

1. Indian society is very, very competitive. I see this especially in my generation. Our kids are very competitive..I don't like it but it must be something we do. Maybe because of point 1.

I'm of course generalising and not everyone is like that but I think.these are the factors that might play a role.

You sound very condescending about Kumon. I have to admit I don't like it either and wouldn't ask.my kids to do it but the point is not that rote learning in particular helps but it instills discipline in kids. It teaches them to do things that might benefit them in the future even if it's boring. Basically the opposite of instant gratification. If there is one thing Indians in general seem to be good at it's this discipline and being able to resist instant gratification.

@Abra1t - you are absolutely right. All the guidance about writing a good personal statement is to focus on the subject, what you know and understand about it, why you want to study it etc with only a sentence or two on extra curricular stuff

I do find it interesting on mumsnet when ever discussion of schools and unis come up - people often reply with but do you know yours kids are clever. The assumption seems to be only a few can get in. I am 1st generation immigrant but came here as a kid. My parents researched everything meticulously to get us through education. The problem often is like of cultural capital once you get to uni i.e. if you are immigrants then you will have to make your own way after uni, I have plenty of mc friends who got help regarding internships, first jobs, financial support and advice from their parents. So its different aspirations and outcomes. Realistically if you are white British and mc, even if your parents let you play out as a kid, chances are you will be ok within this system. Thats just not true of migrant communities.

Aspirations and fitting in also comes into it - DH is wc and doesn't sound posh, its been much harder for him to get accepted in mc and upper mc career tracks, because itd so clear that he isn't one of them. I 'look and sound the part and it's been a lot simpler for me.

Social mobility in the UK is awful. Thats means that anyone not white, British and wealthy mc has to try a lot harder.