Why are Indian & Chinese kids attaining much higher than white/black/Pakistani children?

[Widilo]

I’ve been thinking this over today. DS recently went to a Kumon class (if you trawl through Mn threads over the years this is generally much hated on MN). All the kids coming out were Indian or Chinese, all the kids in her group Indian or Chinese. A smattering of black children and 1 white child (DS). DS won’t be going back (it was a trial class) because it just seemed to be repetitive rote learning of hundreds of sums, but clearly this is working somewhere along the line?

stats linked here www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/11-to-16-years-old/gcse-results-attainment-8-for-children-aged-14-to-16-key-stage-4/latest

Narrow minded (and a bit racist) to stereotype people from non-white backgrounds as non well rounded based on what you perceive to be typically Asian parenting. Do you think China is a country if 1.2 billion people who are all lacking in boundaries and are desperate to please? Or are you just referring to people from immigrant backgrounds?

apologies if I’ve misunderstood as it’s not entirely clear what you mean by ‘people from such backgrounds’. Regardless it does sound like a sweeping statement about people who are non-white

Thank you for saying this, it’s a subtle form of racism but it’s pernicious.

Well white parents tend to put less importance on education and money. Sometimes for the good and sometimes for the bad. I can't speak for other demographics.

For example my sister and I were both judged gifted. And we've both gone on to get several degrees each with ease tbh - but Kumon? What's the point? Our parents would've been fine if we weren't academic and went into trades etc. just so happens we became a doctor and a journalist.

Kumon wouldn't have helped with that? Neither would IQ tests or Genius tests etc.

It's just not a thing on most white communities to prove your child is 'better' or smarter. It happens or it doesn't.

A disproportionate number of the kids at our local grammars are of south or East Asian descent. Like you, I've often wondered what the difference is. Many seem like lovely, considerate kids too and remember to thank the bus driver when getting off for school.

The rote learning must get tedious but kids often respond well to a more structured lifestyle so maybe that plays a part. Chores at home too maybe. And like others have said, they have the scrappy immigrant mindset.

P.s. I'm aware of the 'good immigrant' issue and how problematic it is to talk in the way I have! Yet the parent in me really wants a kid like this and I recognise there are cultural factors at play.

As others have explained, rote learning the basic facts, frees up your brain to take in new more complex knowledge at a faster pace. Over time this advantage gap grows.

I wish the English curriculum for maths included more rote learning in primary, so all students arrived in secondary secure in their times tables and number bonds to 20.

I’m part of the demographic you’re referring to @ReallyDarling and I really dislike “scrappy immigrant [mindset]” as a phrase. Saying I find it offensive would be too censoring but really it needs unpacking. Others on this thread have said it better. I’d have certainly preferred not to have to scrap to get where I am.

We get 13 years of free education in the U.K. Shame so many waste that time. It’s costing a lot of tax to have unmotivated lazy DCs.

like others have said, they have the scrappy immigrant mindset.

Don’t mince words there. 😳

Rote learning starts you off, and that knowledge keeps you moving forward. During the second phase the why becomes clear and enhances the rote learning. It's just a supercharged starting point

There's been research on this. Achievement tends to track immigrants' social class and educational level in their countries of origin. There are some exceptions, but this is a large part of it.

Basic maths computational skills frees up time to tackle more complex problems. It’s nothing more and nothing less. Perhaps as gifted person this was never an issue for you.

It’s not about being better or smarter, it’s about people who felt they had to achieve more to be able to compete on an uneven playing field. It may be less of an issue now but for a generation of people who know they were blocked from access to opportunity due to their origins it is extremely important to make sure their kids are given a fair crack.

You fundamentally misunderstand the motivation for this. You believe it is about status and it’s actually about security. Asian people make jokes about it and their pushy parents but it’s driven by that. They don’t want their kids to struggle, they want them to to have choices, be financially independent be competent adults. Many immigrant families did struggle, starting from scratch, no inheritances, etc, in fact often supporting extended family.

I don’t see what’s terrible about wanting more for your own children.

I don't think the explanation that Chinese immigrant parents have faced racism and that that experience has shaped their attitudes holds water, actually, because the same academic culture exists within China itself where Chinese parents are not immigrants.

Rote learning has fallen out of fashion somewhat at the moment in favour of teaching other skills. However I believe it has its place as it frees up your mind a bit and allows you to focus on the task at hand if you know the foundations off by heart.

It's just different cultural attitudes and expectations.
I'm from a high-achieving minority community and whereas traditionally 'good' jobs are still a major focus, the trajectory tends to be

1st generation - low-paid jobs/small family-run businesses, with huge emphasis on education and achievement for the second generation

2nd generation - huge focus on academics and conventional careers ie. law/medicine/finance to provide security

3rd generation - more freedom to pursue careers that reflect personal interests

I think it's more that kumon is accessed by people who really prioritise their child's education, so they are doing lots in other aspects of their life, too. Its not the kumon, its everything combined.

My children did kumon for a period - the repetitive sums mean they work out maths in exams quickly and correctly so can finish exam.
if you want to know why 2 + 2 you need to look for a tutor.

I was talking about my family experience which is not chinese. Yes there is a culture of prioritising achievement anyway but for people I know, this was a big deal.

Rote learning will lead to these facts being stored in the long term memory, hence why old people can recall facts from school when rote learning was a thing. If you have to work out 2+2 in your working memory then you have reduced cognitive power to concentrate on the problem at hand.

have just been doing this as part of my ECT training. And having marked some gcse mocks yesterday I am going to start rote learning nutrients, definitions for diffusion and cell organelles with my Year 8s onwards.

I don't know why OP is getting such a hard time. Ds1 just finished school and is at Uni and he has always said that the children at his very good school worked so much harder, had a different attitude, mentality, polite, diligence, what-ever-you-want-to-call-it, from Many uk white children. It's just a fact. Well known.

Rather than ask why the Chinese and Indian are doing well it would be better to look inwards and critique our own culture, IMO.

Look at the way educational achievement and academia is derided in this country. In most countries, and formerly in this one, being a teacher or an academic is a profession that commands automatic and profound respect. Here there are those who say "If you can't, teach"; this would be unthinkable in many countries. Ask someone from China or Iran to recite poetry and a great many will be able to recite centuries-old poetry on the spot because being able to recite poetry from memory is a praised and valued skill. Imagine doing that in this country- very few would be able to and those who could would be mocked.

Other countries hold highly competitive university entrance exams and, unlike this country, there's no way to "buy" yourself a place by virtue of generous predicted grade, a personal statement filled with activities open to the rich or having attended a certain school. Entrance is solely based upon academic rigour and students push themselves to the limits to do well. Introduce a similar university entrance exam in this country and watch the established order be thrown into turmoil- which, incidentally, is precisely why it will never happen.

Number bonds to 20 an end of year 2 objective and there is a national times table test in year 4. These children do actually go to school in England you know, maybe it's not the curriculum?

Rote learning is how we learn many things. Language for example - you don’t explain language to your baby - you repeat words, sing etc, then they start to repeat. I think it can also contribute to confidence which helps when subjects become harder.