Why are Indian & Chinese kids attaining much higher than white/black/Pakistani children?

[Widilo]

I’ve been thinking this over today. DS recently went to a Kumon class (if you trawl through Mn threads over the years this is generally much hated on MN). All the kids coming out were Indian or Chinese, all the kids in her group Indian or Chinese. A smattering of black children and 1 white child (DS). DS won’t be going back (it was a trial class) because it just seemed to be repetitive rote learning of hundreds of sums, but clearly this is working somewhere along the line?

stats linked here www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/11-to-16-years-old/gcse-results-attainment-8-for-children-aged-14-to-16-key-stage-4/latest

I believe these type of comments on this thread are a defence mechanism.
I'm a teacher and I remember a thread on here about homework and reading. The number of parents who didn't bother writing a comment in their child's reading record book was the majority of the thread; it was a waste of time, they didn't have time to do it. That attitude is one of the examples of how education is thought by a lot of British people.
There is a lot in between doing nothing and pushing a child to breakdown.

@mookie81

i don’t disagree with you.

That's really interesting @mathanxiety thank you. You sound like a great mum, I'm a bit pushy myself too but it's doing the dc's no harm! Ireland is our neighbour & it's interesting that the attitude to education is so different. Are private schools a big thing in Ireland, I know Northern Ireland still have grammer schools.. Do these exist in the south. A colleague of mine who moved back to Dublin is educating her dc through Irish medium schooling, she said these schools are very good & popular?

No, you and your kids may be fine but many, many are not.

Not just me. I have dc in three schools and I’m not unusual. State school parents - not from backgrounds in title and private sector too

Re the post re London funding it’s not just this but parental effort / attitude. House price premium is a factor and with those types of hoops it continues with learning.

Also o/s we had some similar traits in our schools, so you’d have to think outside just London / UK

@LimitIsUp - as @Mookie81 says, it’s not all or nothing. You can do extra work with your child and get involved in their education. You can discuss their interests and career aspirations and help them achieve their own goals without forcing them down 1 path.

I think with first generation Uk parents (esp in the middle classes) there's this notion of outdoorsy kids running feral everywhere, parents resisting homework as it's pointless etc etc ... Then anything that doesn't fit into this "idyllic" childhood will lead to kids developing mental health problems... Unfortunately the feral kids will grow up & be competing with the kids who's parents appreciate an old fashioned education...

Absolutely that is what I do - encouragement, facilitation, involvement and support. It's worked well for my two (son will be off to study computer science at university next autumn). I have always told them that qualifications open doors, whilst reassuring them there are alternative routes if it doesn't work out, and that mental health trumps A*s.

However, the OP was referring to how academically successful many Asian pupils are relative to others - but the norm for many of those families is pressure, exam results being the absolute focus, over prescriptiveness, over direction, limits on personal choice and individual agency and restrictions on downtime and leisure. I attached a few links explaining the mental health impact of this and in my opinion it is not to be admired

What an extraordinarily facile remark

@LimitIsUp unfortunately it's true.... Especially in my neck of the woods.. The feral kids are little shits with no manners.. The parents call them "spirited", the parents in dc3's class is always bitching & moaning about homework (it's reception it's 10 mins)... The way the world & the economy is changing rapidly the middle class parents won't be able to afford to support these kids... If anything it's the Chinese, Asian & Eastern European parents who are forward thinking, they are raising kids to work hard, aim high & earn the big bucks...

This is an interesting conversation. I was a teacher for a long time, followed by being an 11+ tutor. I've worked in a rural British school, an inner London school and then started tutoring children in Hong Kong, so it's been quite interesting to see so many different family's approaches to education.

Certainly, from my own experience, my parents (white, middle class) weren't particularly academically pushy with me and it must have been from complacency. I was reasonably bright and did ok but not particularly well, and I don't think they worried about whether I would lack opportunities if I didn't work harder. I didn't learn my times tables until I was in my twenties and wanted to become a teacher. I've put in considerable effort to supplement my education as an adult and my mother still expresses surprise that I have turned out to be good at maths long after leaving school.

I think, like most things, the correct approach is somewhere in the middle. I can't see how it's good for children to be pushed and worked so hard that they develop mental health problems. On the other hand, they do need to be motivated by the adults around them, shown the benefits of hard work, learn that life is a balance between work and leisure, and be supported to develop a routine of studying regularly. There seems to be a bit of an attitude in some families (like my own) that kids will get there on their own when they're ready- I'm not sure that's the case unless the child has a really exceptional inner drive.

It doesn't help that the education system here seems to hop between fads so quickly. I can't count the number of changes to how we're supposed to teach that I encountered before leaving the profession. Rote learning is important. Experiential learning through play or 'doing' is important. It would be much better if teachers- especially experienced ones- were given the freedom to look at the kids in their class and decide which methods will work best for the children in front of them.

@blackandwhitecat123 it's so interesting... The Finnish education was lauded for years as the best in the world too. Switzerland & Germany also but I gather their system is extremely rigorous.

@LimitIsUp -yeah, I think successive generations take the good bits and refine it.
Not all Asian parents just care about A*s or high salary. Some do for sure and it can be hugely damaging.
But others want to give their kids a choice (of career, lifestyle, skill).

There are many times when kids don’t want to practice/study/train and you have to ‘force’ them (eg removal of privileges).
The hope is that they will learn to look at the long-term benefits and learn why they need to do this and become self-motivated.

As you say - failure shouldn’t be seen as a moral failing.
But failure to work hard early on in key areas can make things a lot harder than they would otherwise be.
I tell my kids - if you work hard now, you will probably have more choice in job and lifestyle.
You could probably still get where you want if you don’t work now, but you’d have to do things like study at night while holding down a full time job or forgo holidays to save up for a course.

the other thing is to give them realistic expectations of life.
They most likely cannot have it all: job they love, high salary, good work-life balance - we should just try our best and also learn to be happy with where we are.

I definitely think we can learn from other systems, but (just from experience) I don't think it works to just transplant practices from another system into the UK system and expect it to work in the same way. That doesn't account for differences in culture/the way education is presented or talked about in the home.

The only way to find what works (again, in my experience) is to think really carefully about the issues children face in achieving and choosing the right methods to address those issues- also accepting that these issues will be different in different parts of the UK and even between classes in the same school. And that's really difficult to achieve if teachers aren't exposed to lots of different ways of doing things during their training and then given the freedom to decide what's best for each class and child.

@BecauseICan22 but those are all completely normal aspirations amongst middle class white British students too.
My grandparents, parents, aunts, uncles, cousins and siblings all attended University and followed similar career paths to the ones your children aspire too.
I do think the British strangely value innate intelligence over hardwork. You see this often when people talking about tutoring for the 11+ and assuming the children won't be able to keep up. I know plenty of children who were heavily tutored for grammar and selective London day schools and they are all excelling.

@Snowqueen22 this is not my experience of Middle class white British families at all. Yes lots of us complained about homework in reception as it was often pointless and frustrating for the children and we did value time spent outdoors running around. However, by year 2/3/4 most of us were tutoring our children for the 11+ or for London private schools. We are completely aware that they will be competing for places ar the top Universities and our children are ambitious.

The reading record is really not a good example as it is a massive PITA if your dc read a lot, freely and enthusiastically. The Brits have an obsession with recording stuff (e.g in the teaching and medical professions), which takes time away from actually doing, completing and learning useful things. When my dc were at primary school we barely ever completed the reading diary past reception. Not because we were not interested in their education but because we were too busy with enriching extra curricular activities doing maths 5 X a week, instrument practice. The kids read a lot between 5-15 books a week depending on their age and type of book. What's there to write in the diary? I can see the use of the diary in reception but not once kids know how to read, mine read freely from the end of reception. They are now at a highly selective grammar school but I say down with the stupid reading diaries!

IME some families (English, Asian / Indian) are too pushy and use their dc as vehicle to make themselves look good.

Regarding success, the biggest stumbling stone for middle class native white British people and their offspring is their sense of entitledness. It makes them complacent

@ChatsForBats you nailed it:

”Regarding success, the biggest stumbling stone for middle class native white British people and their offspring is their sense of entitledness. It makes them complacent.”

@AlienSupaStar @ChatsForBats so true. I have a friend (more like an acquaintance now) who has 3 unruly, feral dc... Herself & her husband are very mc & well educated. She's lax about her dc's behavior & education.. Unlimited screen time, very anti homework & can't take them to libraries etc as they run amok.. But her entitled attitude is striking.. Often said "oh they'll turn out just like dh & I, they're highly intelligent"... "my dc have brains to burn" etc... We just smile & nod at coffee mornings...

absolutely

Regarding success, the biggest stumbling stone for middle class native white British people and their offspring is their sense of entitledness. It makes them complacent

I do agree with this. I teach a science subject at A-level, and obviously teach students who want to go into medicine/dentistry/vet med etc. Many universities obviously have requirements around GCSEs, work experience etc, as well as admissions tests and A-levels.

Every so often, I or a colleague ends up having a conversation with a parent saying actually with grade 5/6s at GCSE, and a lack of work experience, no, they probably won't get into university course X. And some parents are absolutely insistent there must be a route in, when their child has dossed about and underachieved for years.

The children have never really been allowed to fail at anything, but they hit a certain point where actually their parents can't smooth the way for them any more, and whatever natural ability they may have isn't actually backed up by exam results etc.

Or equally students who want to apply for any course with AAA entry requirements, got Cs all year in Y12, and now they're annoyed I won't predict them a grade A. (There's always an excuse, for the poor performance, too).

The students who really want it tend to be pro-active and self motivated, rather than falling back on excuses- but I think generally they have been taught that.

I do also agree with the idea that white brits are very tied to the idea that intelligence is fixed.

But also PPs are right- you do need to look at school funding and parental social class/income as well.

I wish it was made clearer in school that there are many ways to a good income aside from just education.

I'm not just talking about trades/apprenticeships etc. These do indeed offer a fairly surefire way of getting on a £45k salary without the same degree of ladder climbing/conformity as an office job, but if you want to make much more there are plenty of ways you can run a limited company and make a packet with only a few employees.

I work in the aggregates industry and know loads of not particularly academic guys who make £600 a day by running 2-3 trucks out of the plant. It's a pretty simple business model, to the point that many still continue their day job as drivers once getting their operators license and supplement that £50k salary by having several people driving for them, all of whom pretty much do the same job as the operator minus the bit of admin and maintenance management he does for a much bigger cut of the pie - e.g. client pays a £700 day rate for the truck and driver only gets paid about £150.

I'm slightly bitter I spent thousands on a degree and almost ten years bored out of my mind in an office tbh, although I appreciate some people love that environment.

@Snowqueen22

It's so revealing that you ask about private schools or grammars in Ireland. There's an ingrained assumption that state school = rubbish school on the part of British people.

The answer is that there are grammars in NI, and none in Ireland. In addition, there are very few fee paying schools in Ireland. The vast majority of schools are a mix of community schools and formerly fee-paying religious schools that are now free. There are quite a lot of single sex secondary schools remaining.

Irish language schools tend to be excellent - they are self-selecting school communities and this means highly motivated. Colaiste Iosagain and Colaiste Eoin in Dublin (Irish medium) are in the top tier of schools nationwide, with around 100% of students going on to university.

Teachers nearly all come from the same training colleges/universities, and are products of the same education system they work in.

Ireland has an exam oriented secondary cycle that sees the entire country gripped by exam fever in early summer every year, with the heightened interest lasting until the last round of university offers is made. When the results are out, students who get As in all their subjects are featured in little interviews in the national press. Leading newspapers discuss the exam papers and put out special editions when CAO offers are made, with details of points for various courses.

The Junior Cert exam (taken after the first three years of secondary school) and Leaving Cert exam (taken after the final three, the first of which is a transition year) are a national rite of passage at this point. All schools do the same syllabus, with different levels offered in most subjects. Students get extra points for grades in honours maths, which encourages interest and making the effort required. Getting a good grade in honours maths could make a difference in whether you get into your course of choice. Maths is compulsory for the Leaving Cert, along with English and Irish, and most students take four more subjects. The top six grades are counted for CAO points.

The Central Applications Office (CAO) processes almost all university applications. It's an anonymous, automated system. Exam results and course preferences are fed in, and offers are churned out based on preference (first choice to tenth at level 8 and first to tenth again at level 6/7 courses) and points attained.

@mathanxiety

so students aren’t interviewed for their degree course before they are offered a place?

I felt too much was made of the leaving cert grades and the whole culture around it - I think it puts unnecessary pressure on the students at a difficult time and must make it so hard for the ones who don’t do so well. But it is all avery well ‘integrated’ system - one exam board, teachers are all in sync as you say so there is consistency in teaching approaches, etc.

I thought the exam paper ( for English) was easy to game and there is a culture of that there as opposed to actually understanding the material. I think this has developed as everyone has to study to a higher level whereas under A’level you could drop a subject like maths if you needed to.

What I really liked in English was the scope to use your own voice in some essays - Ireland has kept that and I think it’s really great for young people to be able to explore a topic and express their ideas on it from a personal perspective.