Why are Indian & Chinese kids attaining much higher than white/black/Pakistani children?

[Widilo]

I’ve been thinking this over today. DS recently went to a Kumon class (if you trawl through Mn threads over the years this is generally much hated on MN). All the kids coming out were Indian or Chinese, all the kids in her group Indian or Chinese. A smattering of black children and 1 white child (DS). DS won’t be going back (it was a trial class) because it just seemed to be repetitive rote learning of hundreds of sums, but clearly this is working somewhere along the line?

stats linked here www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/11-to-16-years-old/gcse-results-attainment-8-for-children-aged-14-to-16-key-stage-4/latest

@Snowqueen22 I imagine your Eastern European friends have good incomes and are mainly in professional roles, or business owners? There are thousands of Slovakians in South Yorks, most are at the opposite end of the scale, being Roma.

The hated ‘C’ word plays its part in achievement, generally. Not necessarily down to finances, but certainly down to attitude. Social mobility may have stalled, but its certainly been alive and well in my experience, from the 60s onwards.

@Abra1t although knowing one’s place has perhaps not been evident in education, its still around in some families. Showing ambition, even using more standard speech than the local vernacular can be seen as being disloyal to those around you. It must be difficult to be a bright child in a family and peer group where school and education is to be mocked rather than valued.

I'm sorry but that's only your opinion, the facts based on research demonstrates otherwise - not for all but for some children

@MarshaBradyo that's true too, there's often threads on here about how certain parents play down how hard their child learns at home when they are in fact very much pushed

Can anybody comment on degrees and uni education, in its current form? What kind of intelligence is prized and feted?

I recall the story of geniuses sitting Oxford exams and being asked: 'Is this a question?'. The brilliant response from one was: 'If that is a question, then this is an answer.' I suppose Non-verbal reasoning tests could have helped prepare the mind to respond to that one. However, didn't I read that some bright students who study hard have sometimes been found to have trouble at uni, with deciding how to respond to an assignment without the clear guidance and emphasis on following a pattern, which they are used to.

I’m Eastern European, I can try and explain if you are interested.
Historically there were several major events that drove West and East further apart culturally:
Christianity split in denominations - Orthodox and Protestant are very different in how they shaped Western and Eastern psyche
Ottoman conquest - apart from the obvious mass destruction, the Ottomans slaughtered all nobility (in addition to hundreds of thousands of ordinary people) - it destroyed any notions of caste/class system
Communism and scarcity - it created an artificial caste system - workers (peasants, access to basic food and housing, nothing else) and Party Elite (educated, with access to anything Westerners had).
The latter created a saying ‘Get educated my child, so you don’t have to work hard’ .
EE parents give anything and everything to ensure their children have options and escape a life of scarcity.

Sorry for the long post - I find European history and how nations shaped fascinating .

@7Worfs thank you! My Eastern European friends are very aspirational & unapologetic about it, I love it! They want the very best for their dc & have no problem questioning the teachers, asking for extra work or harder levels in reading. UK parents are more secretive & claim they do nothing extra for their dc. My EE friends are comfortably off, travel & the arts is highly valued. The kids are always in the most practical winter clothes & spend alot of time outdoors. Most EE kids seem to be naturally sporty, the parents are obsessed about them learning to swim!

@Snowqueen22 Ha, I am just visiting primaries as DC1 will start Reception in Sept 2023, and among my list of questions I have:

• How do you ensure each child is stretched to their full ability
• How do you prep children for the 11+

Damn right I’ll do anything I possibly can to raise well-rounded, capable individuals. They may choose to be farmers or plumbers, but AFTER I’ve ensured they’ve had many options and chose carefully.

@7worfs the best of luck! Interesting you mentioned well rounded as the Eastern European kids we know are all much more "rounded" than Uk & other nationalities.. The EE parents are also heavily invested in sports, dance, music, languages & art on top of the academics. It's not a case of one or the other, they must excel at everything! The children are very well behaved & compliant!

Do you mean private or state primaries?

@Snowqueen22 yep, I have already mapped any activities they could be doing and starting ages - I won't be pushing them hard but I want them to try different things and stick with the ones they like and show aptitude in (lazing about on screens for entire days is not an option) .
My 3yo is currently doing rugby and swimming, we'll try Kumon soon. When he turns 4 he'll be eligible to try piano lessons and karate, at age 5 tennis and cricket etc.
@MarshaBradyo around me it's almost all CofE primaries. There are two private ones but they are a bit odd - one is ran by a Christian sect, the other is a Spanish prep - I might have gone for it if I had only one DC to pay for.
Secondary options are excellent - single sex grammars.

Because the parents might have struggled in life as first generation immigrants and want their kids to have a good ethics and a better life.

Also they tend to be strict and expect kids to behave, work hard and be respectful. Zero tolerance for drugs and alcohol use.

Also more likely to have strong family support system and parents who stay together.

I think we have too many white families these days who raise lazy, rude and ignorant kids because they themselves were poorly educated and because of the ''I can do whatever I want'' attitude.

I would argue British society can’t recognise intelligence when they see it. I know so many working class kids who get A-Cs in GCSEs / A Levels without doing any study and while working almost full time from the age of 14-16 (either in the home, outside it, or both). When they get the chance to go to uni and focuss on studies full time they rarely slam out lower than a first.

I don’t think state primaries prepare for 11+ re your questions

It’s still doable though. Many parents will be doing the same or private prep

Indeed - they don’t do specific 11+ prep, but one of the schools said they have a teacher who is a very experienced 11+ tutor privately, and she does provide some steer/advice to students and parents as part of her teaching role.
I’m inclined towards that primary, and supplementing with tutoring. The boys’ grammar is hard to get in to as they only look at results, no catchment area. There are boys travelling 120 miles to study here.

Gotta admit I'm pretty cynical about the whole system tbh, and I'm far from a conspiracy theorist/truther type.

As I said above, I work for a Sikh company and it's certainly an eye opener seeing how much more mature and capable many of the youths are.

However, it does feel to me like our society is one big production line where you spend years working your arse off doing stuff you don't really want to do so you can then spend the next 45 years contributing to the shareholders next yacht.

Of course you'll benefit financially from a good job, but it's still shit that you work the majority of hours in a day, majority of days in a week, majority of weeks in a year, and the majority of years in your life.

But don't fret because you get a few weeks off each year and one day your time will be yours. Oh, but you'll be 65 by then so don't make too many plans. 😉

I honestly couldn't go back to a corporate/office job now. If I'd stayed in bid management I'd likely be an objectively high earner now in my 30s, but I value my time more tbh. Neither me nor my partner want kids so the £50k I get as a truck driver is more than enough with him earning a similar salary and us living in a cheap part of the country. I seem to have much more disposable income than most of my mates with kids tbh.

Ultimately, I'm still part of the wider business network and have to do my job, but getting in my truck with a coffee and listening to Spotify, podcasts, and audiobooks for most of my day doesn't feel like work. I don't have to deal with any annoying colleagues, be polite to any customers/managers I don't like, and I don't have to change my appearance because some middle aged male fart of a customer might not approve of me having a ring in my nose etc.

I think back to my days in the office with colleagues talking about 'bandwidth' and 'reaching out to Fraser in accounts' and I honestly cringe. The amount of sycophantism in many corporate environments really puts me off tbh.

I think a lot of other cultures, even if very good at thriving in these environments, are even more under the corporate thumb than we are. It's not surprising as the Chinese, for example, don't value individuality like we do and would generally speaking rather be the same as everyone else.

I do understand the desire for money and may at some point get my operator's license (could absolutely rake it in with the current shortage) but for now I feel lucky to be able to make £50k whilst wearing a hoodie and listening to music most of the day. I think a lot of people kind of lose perspective nowadays and get good jobs while leading lives that are boring as fuck.

Oh, but you'll be 65 by then so don't make too many plans. 😉

TruckerBarbie why on earth can’t 65 year olds make many plans?

Hmmmmm.

@TruckerBarbie you are not wrong - we are moving apace towards a new form of feudalism.

TruckerBarbie - eminently sensible insights. Couldn't agree more.

Glad to see I'm not alone in my perspective.

For a while I thought I'd become a bit of a misanthrope tbh but then I realised I always was but just never had the confidence to own it in my 20s. 😂

I've got mates who love their corporate/career jobs and I'm genuinely happy for them, but for me the biggest part of the puzzle was how to escape the rat race without completely cutting off my nose. One of the biggest things for me was not wanting to take work home with me and I feel I've mostly succeeded.

Once I park up the wagon and leave the yard I don't spend a second thinking about work and I honestly think that's a very underrated thing. I don't have the same level of career progression as in an office job but there are plenty of ways to make significantly more money and most of them don't rely on impressing others as much as advancement does in the corporate world.

I could get an operators license for under £10k and start a small fleet. Companies are crying out for drivers and we have guys making £600 a day from a handful of trucks working out of our plant. Easy enough to just start out operating my own lease truck (would bump me up to about £60k) and then could gradually add consecutive trucks one at a time.

Alternatively, I'm interested in getting my mobile crane tickets. I can already drive the truck but just need the tickets for the crane operation. Money is decent. My mate's son is 24 and on about £53k. Experienced guys can easily be on £65k, with the top guys making £85k+.

It's not CEO money but you can literally be waiting around for three days for the right wind conditions to do a 15 minute lift. Chilling in a hotel and paid for every minute of it. A guy I know recently got contracted to do one lift and was chilling for a whole week waiting for the right time.

I'm not knocking typical jobs in any way. Most women (and people in general) probs aren't interested in driving trucks or operating cranes, but I think it's not a bad thing to know that there are many options out there that don't involve university/good grades and corporate jobs, and that these seemingly outlandish jobs often actually don't have anywhere near as much competition as corporate jobs and are often in demand. I definitely feel that being articulate has massively helped me in my sector as it's definitely not as taken for granted as with graduate jobs so makes you stand out more, even if not part of the job spec.

I feel a lot of kids (myself included) are pushed towards education by default and never know any different, and this thread is definitely reinforcing that view for me.

Personally I’m no snob - I mentioned upthread I won’t mind my sons becoming farmers or plumbers, BUT I want them to have the education and well-roundedness to make informed choices, and have all the options available.
I want them to have the mind and appreciation of the world, to be able to tell a Van Gogh from Monet, to have a favourite architectural style, to have listened to the most beautiful classical pieces, but also to spend time looking at the pink sky at sunset, smile when they see the moon at 3pm in the winter, and take in the beauty of a lavender field. Whether they are surgeons or tree surgeons 😊

My parents defo weren't snobs. My father (despite becoming a successful banker) was from a really poor working class family and my mother was from a very successful Scottish farming family. Both High achievers but not from a MC background.

I grew up in a neighbourhood with a lot of upper middle class people and tbh I didn't enjoy their company as much as most of the men I work with now (I say 'men' because it mostly is in the construction sector).

Most of guys I work with are self employed or business owners, so they have a fair bit of ambition and drive, but they also mostly seem...'manly'... for want of a better word. I know this is perhaps reinforcing stereotypes but I find it deeply offputting if a man is a bit wimpy or can't change a tyre, for example. Maybe that's not sexist though because I can do it myself (had to get the winder out and winch down the spare tyre from under my pickup truck last week when I drove over a spring).

I don't know. I just feel like a lot of the early 20s construction scheme graduates I work with are so green compared with the lads who were apprentices at 16yo and have years of work behind them by their early 20s. This, thinking about it, is what differentiates the Sikh lads I spoke about earlier. In addition to having good qualifications, they also had years or work experience having started at a young age.

I'm a bit conflicted tbh because I genuinely value knowledge and devoured books as a kid (reading age of 16yo when I was 10) but I also feel like actual job experience vastly trumps education, unless we're talking about sciences/medicine etc.

I think I know what you mean. I find it so off-putting to see men and women in their 20s and 30s being proud of their ineptitude and immaturity.
Stuff like “ugh I had to call a gas engineer in today, I hate adulting” or a lifestyle involving 24/7 gaming and a diet of Cheetos and Mountain Dew. I mean I’m partial to a bit of gaming, but I won’t be raising any men-children!

There are indeed lots of options out there which earn well but don't require a university education - I completely agree. DD's boyfriend is earning £45k per year at age 21 as a marine engineer, he didn't even finish his A levels. Was talking to an electrician today who has a friend who does underwater welding - £60K. Neither of those roles are the kind which come with a long hours culture or involve taking work home with you. They seem also seem a bit more appealing than a Financial Accountant 🤷‍♀️

I've got a Series X. 😂 I chose it over the PS5 mainly so I could play Sea of Thieves with a few guys I know who game on PC. Great fun after a couple of drinks.

But I agree about manchildren. Often IME they seem to be the product of a fairly privileged background but without having been forced or encouraged to stand on their own two feet.