Why are Indian & Chinese kids attaining much higher than white/black/Pakistani children?

[Widilo]

I’ve been thinking this over today. DS recently went to a Kumon class (if you trawl through Mn threads over the years this is generally much hated on MN). All the kids coming out were Indian or Chinese, all the kids in her group Indian or Chinese. A smattering of black children and 1 white child (DS). DS won’t be going back (it was a trial class) because it just seemed to be repetitive rote learning of hundreds of sums, but clearly this is working somewhere along the line?

stats linked here www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/11-to-16-years-old/gcse-results-attainment-8-for-children-aged-14-to-16-key-stage-4/latest

Can you do Kumon online only?

The problem with stats is that they are not specific enough to drill down to the real issues because there is not just one. There are White/Pakistani/Black children that do achieve high GCSE grades.
The biggest factor in determining a child's success is their parent/s.

Some parents place more value on mental wellness for their children and the belief that childhood should be enjoyed.

Some parents place more value on family honour and believe their children are an extention of themselves and they have no option but to be achieve a worthy professional career.

Some parents care about their child's mental health and also believe that they need to obtain a certain income level to be happy as an adult in the UK.

Some parents do not care.

At present, some cultures contain more of a certain type of parent. It will be interesting to see if future generations maintain the family honour type or adopt more western ideals of childhood.

@BecauseICan22 that is just not my experience. My children atrend/attended a very white middle class prinary school in SW London and the families who didn't tutor their children from year 4 onwards were in the minority.

Glad somebody found it interesting.

I feel like some kids who aren't very interested in education or particularly academic get sort of written off sometimes as 'not being a high flyer'. However, whilst they may never be a CEO there's in fact no reason they can't command an above average salary.

I mean, the average salary for a bricklayer is around £40k with the top earners being circa £90k (presumably self employed or in London).

@3WildOnes

YY, I agree that the British value intelligence over hard work, perhaps related to the deeply ingrained idea of knowing one's place. Or perhaps the two ideas feed each other.

I think the education system reflects the idea of fixed intelligence, with the 'world beating' elite attending what they consider the best (private) schools in the world, and the rest making do with 'bog standard' schools and lower aspirations. It's a system that perpetuates a hierarchical society, and there are grumbles about foreigners who don't know their place edging out the traditional elites.

The James Bond character is a great expression of the British national self image imo. This is a pity because a huge amount of human capital is wasted when elitism is fostered.

Interesting thread.
The argument that 'pushing' kids to work hard will affect them in a negative way isn't justified, if you read some of the examples on here of kids studying hard and working for their families.
It's a shame that the opportunity for under 16's to have Saturday jobs isn't there anymore, for those that don't have a family business.

@RedAppleTree there are opportunities to volunteer. We have a 15 year old who is doing DofE awards volunteering in our charity shop. Only for a few hours a week, but if the local shops want Saturday staff, at she’ll have some work experience behind her. It’s good discipline before they actually need to earn a living. You don’t have to be well off to help your children, rather demonstrate a solid work ethic and encourage aspiration.

@mathanxiety yes, my sister was only averagely bright (didn't make the cut for grammar school) but she worked incredibly hard to get in to med school and was successful. She didn't crash and burn as you would think if you believed people here. She is now a successful hospital consultant. Hard work should be valued over natural intelligence.

Knowing your place hasn’t been a feature of British education for decades, unless you are still watching Downton Abbey on a loop.

The problem is that we don’t value intelligence enough. You don’t live here or you would know that even extremely intelligent scientists were being dissed for being ‘boffins’ during Covid.

James Bond isn’t an icon for most British youngsters. My 20-somethings would be baffled by that idea.

The noise in higher education for years now has been improving access to the most prestigious universities, with indignation on the part of some of the schools you would regard as elites.

I am wondering if traditional family structure and family stability prevalent in most Indian and Chinese families I know also contribute to the children's academic and career outcome.

Your sister sounds great! When did she enter med school? It is harder now than 10 years ago but I agree that hard work, grit and determination is what gives an edge, not natural ability.

@15Machines It was over 10 years ago. She is late 30s.

Quite possibly & if there is a well structured routine after school with academics, extracurriculars & bedtimes (as these families tend to have) it must give the kids a good advantage.

I've never seen happier children and happier adults than in Polynesia. Laughter, food and family are prioritised over all other things, especially material things. If you're looking for cultural examples of success, it can be found in this part of the world.

Chinese culture seems especially miserable in comparison. A child's life in relentless study and discipline and fear of crushing authority. For what? So they can drive a black Mercedes? Stuff that.

Yeah, I'm not sure China is exactly a beacon of freedom and empowerment. I definitely respect Indian culture though, even if I'd likely find it a bit stifling personally.

I think a lot of people are focused on the financial/career side, but in reality how many posters on here would be happy adhering to the cultural norms?

Fancy a few gin and tonics/glass of red after a busy week? Nope, you're not allowed to do that.

Drinks with the girls? Definitely not.

Fancy going on a date with that guy you've become friendly with from your hobby? Not if your parents don't approve.

Etc etc.

But that doesn't explain the Eastern Europeans, culturally they are much closer to us.. I have Eastern European friends, they love a cocktail (or 5!), love to travel like us, free to marry who they want etc.... However they are sticklers for achievement for their kids, they want their kids to be the best, music, dance, sports, academics, everything... Maybe their kids are more compliant? But the Eastern Europeans I know are every bit as ambitious as the Asians I know..

All righty then, I’m prepared for my response to your question to be shot down in flames but here is what I honestly believe:
There are genetics at play which can’t be overcome however there are certain groups who will work to encourage their children to learn and other groups who don’t value education highly.

Why do the other kids ring the bell every day if yours never go out to play? Surely they'd have given up by now?

@TerraNostra I've three kids so different sets of friends... They play out at weekends if there's nothing else happening but it's not a thing on school evenings.

Knowing your place hasn’t been a feature of British education for decades, unless you are still watching Downton Abbey on a loop.
Knowing your place is a feature of British society. So is casting aspersions on the middle classes, who value place enormously, and seem the most unhappy with their place.

The problem is that we don’t value intelligence enough. You don’t live here or you would know that even extremely intelligent scientists were being dissed for being ‘boffins’ during Covid.
Expertise isn't valued. It's not the same as intelligence.The cult of the gifted amateur reigns supreme, the clown who went to Eton and can throw out a few jumbled phrases in Latin and looks like a shambling idiot became Mayor of London, foreign minister, and PM. People love the freewheeling Bullingdon spirit because it comes with the right accent and it sounds as if it was born to lead. They despise the scientists arguing from carefully constructed graphs and data because anyone could do that.

James Bond isn’t an icon for most British youngsters. My 20-somethings would be baffled by that idea.
Not an icon, no, but he represents the English self image, essential Britishness. Bond is suave, upstream troutish but with a bit of an edge, a little unconventional, has a good few tricks up his sleeve, and flies by the seat of his pants. The reason for his success is flashes of brilliance, not methodical slog.

The noise in higher education for years now has been improving access to the most prestigious universities, with indignation on the part of some of the schools you would regard as elites.
The elites will migrate elsewhere. They'll eschew the prep schools that are full of Russians and Chinese, and the big name public schools too. They'll still go to Oxbridge, but they'll apply to the Ivy League too. Applications to Ivy League schools from British students continue to rise.

In the progressive wing of educational psychology, competitiveness has been discouraged in Britain, since the 1960s. There has been criticism of the emphasis on wanting to outdo others in a race, of sporting or of any academic kind, as though competitiveness is a form of aggression and linked to lacking empathy. The metaphor of the 'sharp-elbowed' parent or teenager isn't a pleasant one, after all, as being elbowed hurts.

I suppose as the standard of living improved from the 60s onwards, the imperative receded to succeed to avoid starvation. Now, we are back in hard times, and we reassess things. The idea of self-expression seems to go hand in hand with having the luxury and ease to indulge this need, once the other needs in Maslow's hierarchy of needs have been met. It was the aristocrats in the nineteenth century who were liberal thinkers, absorbed influences from other cultures whilst on the grand tours, and who gave themselves a broad education.

Also, attitudes seem to go in fashions. State schools are now 'ranking' pupils and publicising the rankings, which I think is cruel. Any sort of comparing used to be frowned upon.

Probably the 2014 education reforms have caught out a lot of parents. They are unaware that GCSEs have got very significantly harder since Gove restructured. Maybe they themselves passed, years ago, and think you just have to be reasonably bright. Friends I know seem to think, also, that their children will easily manage 11+, not realising that it is actually very hard and aimed at selecting the very ablest percentage.

Just read about the eco-warriors. This is what middle class young adults from comfortable backgrounds prioritise. They are risking their CV by being photographed doing these protests.

I suppose the big thinking which goes with their attitudes is a million miles away from rote learning and cramming facts and strategies in four tutoring sessions a week. It takes an enlightened mind, and creative imagination, I guess, to look at the bigger picture of existence, rather than to narrowly concentrate on nurturing a well-paid career.

I suppose that some parents want to encourage their children with creative play and independent thinking and think this will encourage truly intelligent offspring, and they would be horrified by the idea of rote learning and hours of homework and practising with 11 plus papers.

I guess that balance is the best idea. My impression is that for parents who send their kids to private schools, the balance is built in. In one sense, there isn't a choice, because it is taken out of the parents' hands. Children in independent schools seem to have masses of homework and sit tests, exams and mocks every few weeks, from Year 8 onwards. They also seem to do exploratory and creative things during the extended school day - which can end as late as 5.30pm. Maybe that is why parents who can afford it do go private. They trust the subtle balancing and mixing.

What is more, the school day being longer, parents can work hard and leave education and the intellectual development of their kids to the private school. ( Actually, didn't it used to be said that popular all-rounders were encouraged at these type of schools, rather than swots).

I wonder, how much laissez-faire parenting is down to the fact that parents work long hours and can't be there, in the early part of the evening, to enforce and encourage rote learning and revision.

If people think competitiveness has been overly discouraged they could give London system a go. Selective or state.

Grammar system too but I haven’t used that.

MC parents are pretty good at competing, in a less showy but successful way.

Skimming through some of the posts. Very different to experience with London selective day schools.

Academic intelligence is important. Culturally you might get the impression parents feel differently but you’d be at a disadvantage to mistake it for anti academic etc

Top state schools too, but in a different way.