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Ukraine Invasion: Part 35

989 replies

MagicFox · 12/11/2022 16:40

We're still here, on 35 πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦

OP posts:
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86
Greenshake · 12/11/2022 19:45

Times Article

RedBea · 12/11/2022 19:50

Are they anywhere near Mariupol yet? I think that those poor people in Mariupol everyday. Praying for Ukraine πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦

Skidamarinkadinkadink · 12/11/2022 19:53

Place marking!

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 12/11/2022 19:56

RedBea · 12/11/2022 19:50

Are they anywhere near Mariupol yet? I think that those poor people in Mariupol everyday. Praying for Ukraine πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦

No. It's going to be a long time before the survivors of Mariupol can be helped.

a bit of an odd juxtapostion but:

Russian sees a Ukrainian soldier shouting insults. He sends 10 men up to get him. They don't return and he's still there. He sends 100 men this time. Again they don't return and he still sees the soldier. Now he sends 1000.
Finally 1 limps back "It's a trap. There's 2 of them"πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

Natsku · 12/11/2022 20:34

Thanks for the new thread, just been catching up on the previous, tears in my eyes watching the videos from liberated Kherson. Beautiful.

Russian sees a Ukrainian soldier shouting insults. He sends 10 men up to get him. They don't return and he's still there. He sends 100 men this time. Again they don't return and he still sees the soldier. Now he sends 1000.
Finally 1 limps back "It's a trap. There's 2 of them"

Haha, recycled joke from the winter war, very fitting!

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 12/11/2022 22:09

came from the Winter War did it? heh =))

blueshoes · 12/11/2022 22:31

Greenshake · 12/11/2022 19:45

Very interesting article by Galeotti in The Times highlighting the exact Crimea issue I was talking about earlier. I will try to share it.

Can anyone link with a share token? The Times article is behind a paywall.

Onceuponatimeinalandfaraway · 12/11/2022 23:02

Has the Kherson damn been bombed? I could swear it said on the bbc news headlines it had but I didn’t manage to catch it in the brief news. Please tell me they didn’t?

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 12/11/2022 23:06

Definitely some damage to it but no talk of it being at disastrous levels, from a general impression.

Onceuponatimeinalandfaraway · 12/11/2022 23:08

Thank you, I hope they leave it alone now!

strawberriesarenot · 12/11/2022 23:09

Thank you, as always.

TokyoSushi · 12/11/2022 23:09

Checking in!

TheABC · 12/11/2022 23:23

Putin will go, if not now then within the next few years. We are dealing with a dangerous rogue state whatever we do. It's part of the reason the USA is doing it's best to attrite down the Russian weaponry and China is standing silently by.

For me, the worst case scenario is a break up of the Russian union into a bunch of rogue warlord states with nuclear arsenals. The North Korea whack -a-mole option. I hope wiser heads then mine are working on the problem.

Regarding Ukraine's peace, the options are still same as they were in February, but the odds have changed for the better.

  1. Russia wins; then slowly leaches blood & treasure trying to keep the territory. (unlikely)

  2. Ukraine wins, kicks them back to the border and makes peace with a watchful border force.

  3. Stalemate. No peace, no war or intermittent during from Russia to Ukraine. Think N/S Korea.

  4. Hot war continues until one side is dead or gone. (Now unlikely).

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 12/11/2022 23:27

Russia wins; then slowly leaches blood & treasure trying to keep the territory

If Russia wins they will probably deport all possible troublemakers or kill them if they are active partisans. It's what they've donen the occupied territories and they have a very long history of it elsewhere, Crimea is just one example

TracyBeakerSoYeah · 13/11/2022 00:17

Thank you for the new thread.

Thereisnolight · 13/11/2022 00:41

.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 13/11/2022 00:56

Times article by MARK GALEOTTI

Putin is humiliated by Kherson β€” but Zelensky should beware overconfidence

Rather than bringing the war nearer to an end, Russians’ latest disaster could lead to more bloodshed
President Putin’s decision to withdraw from Kherson could be a turning point in the war, not so much because of the fate of this shattered city itself, but for what could follow.
Moscow is hoping to slow Ukraine’s advance; Kyiv is scenting a wider victory; and the West fears that too speedy and successful an advance might bump Putin into escalation.
Forced to leave
The Ukrainians were wise enough not to try to push the Russians out in street-by-street fighting, and instead isolated them, hitting the crucial bridges across the Dnipro river with long-range artillery and hammering their supply lines. The goal was to make their position so untenable they would simply abandon their prize.
Russia’s generals have known this for some time, and had been lobbying for weeks for a withdrawal to positions along the left (eastern) bank of the Dnipro. It seems that Putin was reluctant, because while Kherson was militarily indefensible it was politically significant as the only regional capital he had managed to capture, and he had incautiously declared at the end of September that its residents were β€œour citizens for ever”.
Although the Ukrainians feared a trap to the end, the Russians began openly pulling out today, although they probably quietly began several days before. At the time of writing, accounts are mixed, with competing claims of a successfully completed operation and a massacre at the hands of Ukrainian artillery. A withdrawal under fire is a complex and difficult operation, after all, and much will depend on how disciplined and successful a retreat they have been able to manage.

Holding the line
Moscow’s hope has been that these forces, which include a disproportionate number of paratroopers and other relatively elite troops, could be extricated largely intact, to reinforce new defensive lines. In recent weeks new fortifications have been built along the Dnipro. Indeed, this is being done all along the front line and even in Crimea.
The intent is to try to halt Ukraine’s advancess_ until autumnal rains make substantive offensive operations difficult. While some 80,000 mobilised reservists have been thrown into the front line as little more than cannon fodder, taking terrible losses, twice as many are undergoing very basic training in Russia and Belarus. The idea is that by spring they will have been formed into brand new if poor quality units, whose arrival on the front lines would dramatically strengthen them.
Putin is, after all, probably not expecting to win this war on the battlefield. Rather, by denying Ukraine a quick win and signalling that Russia is able to leverage its resources to keep the war running indefinitely, he hopes to shake the West’s willingness to continue to arm and bankroll the conflictt_.

Cutting and running
The danger for Russia was that the withdrawal could become a rout. Under Ukraine’s accurate and powerful artillery fire, discipline could collapse. Panic can be contagious, and with military police units already overstretched one US intelligence analyst said the war had left them β€œshell-shocked and uncertain” this could have led to a wider pattern of retreats.
The chances of the Ukrainians then being able to mount a substantial attack across the Dnipro were slender, but one scenario that the Russians had feared was that, as in the successful Kharkiv offensivee_, they might send fast, light raiding forces deep into Russian-held territory, bypassing strongpoints but raiding supply lines and spreading panic.
One British military analyst described Chaplynka, 100km southeast of Kherson, as a key benchmark. The town has been fortified, with artillery pits, trench lines and an airfield that is being used as a base for helicopter gunships. In his view β€œChaplynka is the main roadblock on the way to Crimea . . . [It] should be expected to hold, but if for any reasons the Russians bug out, it’s next stop Armyansk,” the gateway to the peninsula.
Crimean dilemmas
That the withdrawal seems to have gone relatively successfully, allowing the Ukrainians to liberate Kherson but not triggering a wider collapse of the Russian lines, is perversely something of a relief for many western governments.
One of their nightmares was precisely that the Ukrainians might spy an opportunity to make some kind of direct thrust towards Crimea. The peninsula matters to Putin and, indeed, most Russians the way the other annexed territories do not. His seizure of Crimea in 2014 was hailed at home as a triumph, and Putin may consider its potential loss an existential threat to his power.
He has demonstrated that he can be rational and accept defeats, as when he abandoned his early drive on Kyiv at the end of March and now over Kherson. However, the fear is that if faced with a sudden and unexpected threat to Crimea he could panic and escalate the war in dangerous ways, potentially resorting to non-strategic nuclear weapons.

Wilful proxies
This would pose some thorny political dilemmas for the West. Could they really petition the Ukrainians not to press home their advantage and take back as much occupied territory as they can? Would Kyiv listen?
For all Moscow’s repeated claims that the Ukrainians are merely Nato proxies, with President Zelensky an actor reading lines supplied by the CIA, if anything of late the West has been signalling its discomfort at Ukraine’s refusal to share its intentions and listen to its backers’ concerns.
This week, for example, the US government, feeling it had exhausted other avenues, resorted to β€œdiplomacy by media”, with a strategic leak to the ever-obliging Washington Post that it was concerned about the risk of growing β€œUkraine fatiguee_” in the West so long as Kyiv appeared to rule out any negotiations with Russia.
To be sure, at present there is nothing to negotiate seriously. Although Moscow keeps claiming to be willing to talk, so long as it refuses to countenance the return of occupied territories, there is not enough common ground to make talks meaningful, especially as a ceasefire maintaining the present positions would be very much to the Russians’ advantage, granting them a breathing space in which to regroup and rearm. Ukraine has ruled it out.
Nonetheless, with the G20 summit looming, the West is concerned that Moscow is having some success in selling its invasion as an β€œanti-imperialist war” in the global south. Visiting Tehran last week, Putin’s closest and most hawkish ally, Nikolai Patrushev, framed it as a β€œstruggle for the establishment of a multipolar world order” against β€œUS hegemony”.

Winning at the right speed
Last month Zelensky issued a decree forbidding talks with Russia so long as Putin was president. Moscow has made much of this, presenting Kyiv as the obstacle to peace. Washington’s overtures were successful in getting Zelensky to soften his position, which will help the struggle to shore up support in neutral countries.
However, the West is painfully aware that, in the words of one European ambassador in Moscow, β€œKyiv is determined to call the shots” on what is, after all, a war for its own national sovereignty, in which its citizens are doing the dying, and that it is β€œoften frankly annoyed at any suggestion that it should moderate its actions based on what Putin might feel”.
The liberation of Kherson is undoubtedly a Ukrainian triumph. However, behind the scenes there are growing disagreements among the western allies and between Kyiv and its supporters over when peace negotiations should take place and how the war might end. As Ukraine’s forces edge closer to Crimea these tensions will become more significant, more urgent and potentially much more dangerous.

Professor Mark Galeotti is the author of Putin’s Wars: From Chechnya to Ukraine, published by Bloomsbury last week

blueshoes · 13/11/2022 01:48

@DesdamonasHandkerchief thanks for the Times article.

Crimea does appear to be the flashpoint. It started and will end with Crimea. I noticed that the last headings is Winning at the Right Speed. Even if the West cannot stop/persuade Ukraine from winning Crimea, they don't want Ukraine to win too fast? So eek out the war at the cost of Ukraine lives and infrastructure?

MagicFox · 13/11/2022 06:50

Thanks for the Galeotti article. Re the US position see comments from Jake Sullivan below (shared by Samantha Power on Twitter)
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OP posts:
MagicFox · 13/11/2022 06:53

Sorry attached below with one more to come

Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
OP posts:
MagicFox · 13/11/2022 06:54

Final :

Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
OP posts:
notimagain · 13/11/2022 07:03

@MagicFox

Those links/images didn't work that well for me (might be my browser). Hope you don't mind if I C&P Jake Sullivan's comments from another source (whitehouse.gov) for anybody with similar problems:

www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2022/11/11/press-gaggle-by-press-secretary-karine-jean-pierre-and-national-security-advisor-jake-sullivan-en-route-phnom-penh-cambodia/

MR. SULLIVAN:

So, I’ve obviously seen a number of press stories on this topic, and I thank you for the opportunity to lay down what I think are the four core elements of consensus in the U.S. government and, fundamentally, what President Biden believes about this question.

The first is: He said in the press conference it’s up to Ukraine to decide when and how they want to negotiate. Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine.
We’re not going to pressure them; we’re not going to dictate to them.

The second is that we believe in a just peace based on the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity that are not things we made up but that are embedded in the U.N. Charter. The G7 leaders spoke to these principles of a just peace, including territorial integrity. President Zelenskyy has spoken to these.

The third point is that Russia is doubling down on its β€œannexation,” quote, unquote β€” annexation of Ukrainian territory. That’s not exactly a sign of seriousness about negotiating. As long as Russia holds the position that it simply gets to grab as much territory as it wants by force, it’s hard to see them as a good-faith counterparty in a negotiation.

And the fourth and final point is that the U.S. approach remains the same today as it was six months ago, which is we’re going to do everything we can, including our announcement, our military announcement β€” our military security assistance announcement yesterday β€” to put Ukraine in the best possible position on the battlefield so that when they make their determination to proceed, they’re in the best possible position at the negotiating table.

And one more big-ticket item.
So there’s kind of this sense of when is Ukraine going to negotiate.
Okay, ultimately, at a 30,000-foot level, Ukraine is the party of peace in this conflict, and Russia is the party of war. Russia invaded Ukraine.
If Russia chose to stop fighting in Ukraine and left, it would be the end of the war. If Ukraine chose to stop fighting and give up, it would be the end of Ukraine.

So this whole notion, I think, in the Western press of β€œWhen is Ukraine going to negotiate?” misses the underlying fundamentals, which is that Russia continues, even as recently as the last 24 hours, to make these outlandish claims about annexed Russian territory β€” quote, unquote, β€œRussian territory” β€” including territory they just left.

So in that context, our position remains the same as it has been, and fundamentally is in close consultation and support of President Zelenskyy and Ukraine. And that is shared across the U.S. government.

MagicFox · 13/11/2022 07:04

Thanks @notimagain - I don't know why I didn't just do that πŸ€¦β€β™€οΈ

OP posts:
notimagain · 13/11/2022 07:12

MagicFox · 13/11/2022 07:04

Thanks @notimagain - I don't know why I didn't just do that πŸ€¦β€β™€οΈ

No worries...for once I found an IT thingy I actually could actually do....

borntobequiet · 13/11/2022 08:19

Thanks once again for this and previous threads.