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Ukraine Invasion: Part 35

989 replies

MagicFox · 12/11/2022 16:40

We're still here, on 35 πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦

OP posts:
Thread gallery
86
Igotjelly · 14/11/2022 18:35

UN GA have voted in favour of Russia paying reparations for its invasion. Anyone seen the full breakdown? Interested to see who abstained etc. but can’t find it.

Greenshake · 14/11/2022 18:39

@Hancox432 i think you are right.

Underthesofa · 14/11/2022 19:08

Sorry I don’t know how to do twitter links but I have found this.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
MMBaranova · 14/11/2022 19:09

Summarising what I pick up from discussions with relatives.

Most of them are in or near to Dnipro, though they are fairly dispersed and in the internet age, power permitting, in contact with each other in ways that could not have been imagined 100 years ago. Most speak Russian at home and most have -ov/ova family names (and would use similar patronymics). Go sideways and there are -k etc. Ukrainian endings. These are the people Putin would like to free and bring into the Mother Russia fold.

They hate him.

Identities within Ukraine are changing and complex. My mother is a child of the Soviet Union (and probably something of a mail order bride, but that's another bucket of worms) and in childhood was part of a family that probably considered themselves as Russians living in the Ukrainian SSR in or close to paces their ancestors had. I've tried to track things back but get nowhere. Are they descended from Ukrainians who Russified, or settlers? No idea. I joked once that perhaps we were Turbins (as in Bulgakov's White Guard - stage version beloved by Stalin) but got puzzled looks. Over the years they have shifted to being Russian Ukrainians, to Russian speaking Ukrainians to... well, Putin haters.

They all want the war to end (in victory), none have made any comments about supporting cutting a deal that gives Putin anything, and there's a lot of determined stoicism in discomfort. All of them seem to be unscathed in that they are alive, if poorer and sometimes cold and hungry. That's apart from the ones in Kherson Oblast, south of the river, who have had truly bad times. Most could do with some medical issues being addressed and dental work done. The semi-collapse of dentistry in Ukraine doesn't get mentioned, but there are bad teeth that should be seen to and a young relative in Kyiv has braces that need attention.

They had a 'before' (the war) that they remember and is memorialised in near frozen social media. The long-haul nature of things seems to have dawned on different ones at different times. When they look beyond today, tomorrow and next week to a better future it is not really a return to the past. It is to a rebuilt Ukraine but one that will be different due to the rebirth through bombing and deprivation. A toughened place with mutual love, pride and support.

There's a mental health toll that, if I can pick it up, must be immense. Also at the weekend when I asked about the apartment of the mother's friend a pair moved to I was sent a selfie in a room surrounded by bags of possessions. In the image my 23 year old relative had a slightly thinner face than the pretty one in her social media posts from a year or two ago, but the thing I noticed was that she had spots, probably from the stress. Her smile was forced.

Underthesofa · 14/11/2022 19:11

That’s a rubbish photo as it’s cut off the first column! Look at euromaidan press twitter account.

Igotjelly · 14/11/2022 19:25

Underthesofa · 14/11/2022 19:08

Sorry I don’t know how to do twitter links but I have found this.

Fab thanks.

MissConductUS · 14/11/2022 19:28

Here's the link.

twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1592230736563781633

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2022 20:44

More on the Kinburn Rumours:

This is the Head of the Office of the President of Ukraine

Andriy Yermak AT AndriyYermak
🌊+ πŸ– = πŸ’ͺ

(not sure if the icons will come across so here's a link to the original tweet)
twitter.com/AndriyYermak/status/1592195578750025729

This is being responded to by some pretty serious journalists. Here is an example:

Christopher Miller AT ChristopherJM (FT Ukraine Correspondent)
πŸ‘€ Oh my. Unconfirmed and deciphering emojis can be tricky. But it seems the rumors may be true: Ukrainian forces might have liberated the Kinburn Peninsula in Mykolaiv region. Watch this space.

But this doesn't seem to be the only rumour.

Noel AT NoelReports
Vitalii Kim is hinting towards surprises, Andriy Yermak gives cryptic hints, the Mayor of Oleshky talks about Oleshky being Ukrainian and Pro-Russian channels report that Kinburn Spit is under AFU control.

I think we will soon find out 😎 nothing confirmed.

And

Euan MacDonald AT Euan_MacDonald
Chatter about Ukrainian amphibious landings in Kinburn Peninsula, taking the town of Herois'ke, artillery strike on Russian base in Hornostaivka, rumors of Ukrainian troops in Oleshky, explosions reported in Hola Prystan'... No operational pause after Kherson, it seems.

It is now being accepted that SOMETHING has been going on. Third parties have observed combat fire:

(((Tendar))) AT Tendar
Something is going on around the Kinburn peninsula. The rumors that Ukrainian troops have entered Heroiske are vague, but what we know for sure is that the coast of Ochakiv has been attacked by MLRS fire. That would be consistent in trying to repel an amphibious attack.

Tbh, this all sounds remarkly implausible. Oleshky is on the opposite bank of the Dnieper from Kherson. If they have managed to take the town, then crossing the river and establishing a permenant crossing becomes a lot more doable.

However desparate this sounding so implausible, there was a video floating about on twitter YESTERDAY claiming to be Oleshky.
twitter.com/ItsArtoir/status/1591809306990870533

Artoir AT ItsArtoir
Oleshky, the town on the left bank of the Dnipro river opposite the Antonovsky bridge. Not a Russian soldier or flag in sight.

Ukraine apparently had bombed Oleshky in the last few days with artillery, and thats being talked about in combo with it being a reason for Russia to abandon the town.

This from 4 days ago (day of the withdrawal):
WarMonitor AT WarMonitor3
Locals reports the mass movement of Russian military equipment near Oleshky

This doesn't say whether thats in or out of the town mind...

Going back further we know that Oleshky WAS one of the towns that Russia tried to forcefully deport civilians from;

The Kyiv Independent AT KyivIndependent Nov 6
Russian forces deport residents of six settlements in occupied parts of Kherson Oblast.

Russians have begun to forcibly β€œevacuate” residents of Hola Prystan, Oleshky, Kakhovka, Hornostaivka, Velyka Lepetykha, and Verkhnii Rohachyk, according to the National Resistance Center.

I think this is worth keeping in mind. As well as that dam.

Atm, I remain reasonably skeptical but we shall see.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
RedToothBrush · 14/11/2022 20:47

Certainly senior Ukrainians WANT to spread rumours if nothing else.

MissConductUS · 14/11/2022 20:54

Interestingly, the last US military aid package to Ukraine included 40 armed and armored riverine patrol/assault boats. I don't think it's relevant to the current rumors, but the Ukrainians must have specifically requested them.

Pentagon Adds 40 Armored Patrol Boats to Latest Ukraine Military Aid Package

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2022 20:59

Svatove Update. Whilst the focus has been Kherson, the Ukrainians have made some small progress.

Today seems to be more of the same:

(((Tendar))) AT Tendar
Russian sources say that the battle in Russian-occupied Luhansk has severely intensified today. Kreminna is directly attacked from the forest, artillery strikes on Svatove and a push from Makiivka. Together with the fighting in Kuzemivka yesterday this might be something bigger.

NOΓ‹L AT NOELreports
Unconfirmed reports that the AFU has forced a breaktrough in Novomykil's'ke, south of #Svatove. Russian sources report that the AFU broke trough with at least 10 pieces of equipment.

We are waiting for more information.

Reports over the last week have been full of noise about Russian troops surrendering where they see the opportunity or sitting shooting at anything as they are afraid of the Ukrainians but equally fearful of being regarded as deserters! Certainly rumours are that Russian loses in the area have been HUGE

(((Tendar))) AT Tendar
Russian-occupied Svatove is again under heavy Ukrainian artillery fire.

Additionally, according to the independent Russian media collective "Astra" half of the newly conscripted Russians there got killed in October. A new Russian catastrophe in the making.

Meanwhile the Russians are claiming to have captured Pavlivka in Donetsk. They've been doing this for 3 days. With no visual confirmation apart from a flag on a building at the far edge of town.

There are rumours SOMETHING went down though. And not necessarily too good for the Russians:

Andrew Perpetua AT AndrewPerpetua
Both Ukrainians and Russians write about a Ukrainian trap set in Pavlivka that caused significant casualties amongst the Russians. Something about lulling Russians into a predetermined killing field and airstrikes. Unverified, but both sides appear to agree on the basic facts.

Lots and lots of rumours at the moment.

I think there is only one certainty. Wagner is getting fucking nowhere near Bakhmut!

MissConductUS · 14/11/2022 21:28

An EU weather agency is predicting a warmer than usual winter.

Europe Poised for a Warmer-than-Normal Winter, Copernicus Says

If true, this reduces the risk of shortages and will help moderate energy prices, which reduces political pressure on Ukraine.

Another bit of bad news for Putin.

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2022 22:47

Harry Cole at mrharrycole
NEW: 11th hour deal to avoid Β£3 billion of immediate defence cuts

Treasury to relax Whitehall spending rules to allow MoD to use cash earmarked for future projects to meet inflation shortfall in current budget.

Row over defence spend kicked into spring

Ben Wallace gets his money.

Greenshake · 14/11/2022 22:55

Good. This shouldn’t even have been in question.

BreadInCaptivity · 14/11/2022 23:07

Greenshake · 14/11/2022 22:55

Good. This shouldn’t even have been in question.

Agreed.

MMBaranova · 14/11/2022 23:12

Russian responses to the retreat from Kherson at the level I tend to look (what's circulating on social media rather than the TV studio pundits etc.) is all over the place.

The tone of this, for instance, is odd. The puppet mayor of Kherson, now evacuated himself, on the residents who didn't want to evacuate:

Alexander Kobets

Then there are things like taking raccoons from the Kherson Zoo 'to safety'.

What's playing badly and circulating widely is an image of two collaborators allegedly tied to posts by Ukrainian forces for public condemnation.

As to how well the Russian forces are doing, there's a split between the bewildered ones who see Ukraine on a roll and are in shock over the withdrawal on one hand and those saying there is a regrouping before renewed advances with reinforced troops on the other.

MissConductUS · 14/11/2022 23:26

As to how well the Russian forces are doing, there's a split between the bewildered ones who see Ukraine on a roll and are in shock over the withdrawal on one hand and those saying there is a regrouping before renewed advances with reinforced troops on the other.

The second group is using copium.

The WSJ has published an opinion piece by Boris Johnson regarding Ukraine. I'll assume it's of general interest and copy and paste the text.

In the Ukraine War, Victory Is the Only Option - Any compromise would be unjust, and Vladimir Putin would be sure to violate an agreement anyway.

By Boris Johnson
Nov. 14, 2022 12:33 pm ET

I understand why Volodymyr Zelensky says he is willing to negotiate with Vladimir Putin. I have no doubt the Ukrainian president is sincere. If there were anything that remotely resembled a viable peace plan, his government would leap at it.

Mr. Zelensky’s people have suffered the most bestial bombardment in Europe since World War II. Whole cities have been broken and blackened by Mr. Putin’s war machine, tens of thousands of innocents killed. Every day it goes on, without pity or remorse: captives tortured, women raped, schools and kindergartens deliberately targeted. Every day the Iranian-made drones thump into the cities, turning off the lights, cutting the water supply.

Peace? Of course Ukraine wants peace. The economy is in ribbons. Mr. Zelensky’s government can barely pay its public servants. Of course it would like a negotiation.

There is only one problem. It is the same problem that has confronted Mr. Zelensky every day since Feb. 24. There is nothing to negotiate. No would-be mediator on earth has been able to come up with any compromise that even begins to be plausible.

What kind of deal could we possibly construct, under the current circumstances? Let us suppose that Western powers were to try to persuade Ukraine to trade land for peace. Any such bargain would, naturally, be disgusting. It would be a moral reproach to humanity.

But let’s imagine that some kind of agreement could be struck whereby Mr. Putin keeps not only the pro-Russian parts of the Donbas but also at least some of the territory he has captured in the south. The minute you think about it you can see that the idea isn’t merely repugnant. It is hopeless.

It has zero chance of working. Which bit should the Ukrainians give up, in perpetuity, to the Russians? A couple of cities? The whole land bridge from Mariupol to Crimea?

Even if the Ukrainians were to be persuaded to surrender their rights to some of their landβ€”which they wouldn’t, couldn’t and shouldn’t beβ€”there is no reason to believe that Mr. Putin would stick to the deal. He has already officially annexed four oblasts. He says that Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, Luhansk and Donetsk are now legally part of Russia.

As his batty 2021 essay made clear, Mr. Putin is possessed by a chthonic belief that Ukraine is part of a holy and indivisible union with Russia. He doesn’t merely want the land bridge. He wants the whole thing. He has spent so long in his Covid bubble, taking semi-mystic advice from bearded Orthodox priests, that he genuinely believes he is fated to avenge the insults of history and reunify the empire of Peter the Great. Of course Mr. Zelensky would like to negotiate, but you can’t negotiate with a murderous liar who will continueβ€”whatever he may claimβ€”to try to destroy your country.

So let’s get real. Let’s recognize that there is only one possible set of circumstances in which a negotiation could take placeβ€”and that is when Mr. Putin has failed. There is only one way to end this war, and that is to help the Ukrainians expel the Russian invaders from every mile of the territory they have viciously annexed, and certainly everything taken since Feb. 24. And please, can we all stop the cringe-making nonsense about the risk of β€œbacking Putin into a corner” or β€œforcing him to lash out”?

We make him sound like Tony Montana at the end of β€œScarface,” crazily waving a nuke and shouting, β€œSay hello to my little friend.” If Mr. Putin were to use a weapon of mass destruction, he would be tendering Russia’s resignation from the club of civilized nations; he would earn the revulsion of the swing states, in Asia, Latin America and Africa, that are currently cutting him so much slack; he would lose his Chinese patrons; he would terrify his own population; and he would plunge his country into economic isolation of cryogenic ferocity.

It isn’t going to happen. We should stop talking about it.

There is only one way forward, and that is for the West to continue to support the liberation of the Ukrainian people, perhaps the most transparently just and righteous cause in international affairs in living memory.

The Ukrainians have shown what they can do. With a mixture of inspired leadership and the heroism that comes from knowing you are fighting for your country, they have put the Russians to flight in Kharkiv and now in Kherson.

Yes, eventual defeat will be embarrassing for Mr. Putin, and yes, he will have some explaining to do. But he controls the organs of propaganda. He has strong popular support. He can say, perhaps, that the β€œNazis” have been purged from Ukraine, or that Russian minorities have been protected.

Let him come up with a story. It’s not our job. Our job is to give the Ukrainians the help they needβ€”Himars, artillery, tanks and planesβ€”to defend their homes and their families and to restore what they had: a free, sovereign, independent and democratic Ukraine.

The assistance of the Westβ€”above all, of the U.S.β€”has been outstanding and invaluable. Our job is to continue to give that help until the Ukrainians have won, and decisively. And then of course there will be time to negotiate a peaceful, orderly and lasting relationship, and friendship, between Ukraine and Russia.

Mr. Johnson served as British prime minister, 2019-22.

MMBaranova · 14/11/2022 23:29

There's a lot of Wagner glorification going on and the sledgehammer execution is shrugged off or even praised. A video of activity allegedly near Bakhmut appears multiple times (with only a few views each time). The Wagnerites seem to advance across fields to abandoned positions.

vk.com/video631794821_456244153

The withdrawal from Kherson is noted as allowing Ukraine to reinforce Bakhmut in the report in this image and various versions of it. As ever, Russian sources like to name Ukrainian units far more often than the Ukrainians do.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
RedToothBrush · 15/11/2022 02:41

Re footage of Oleshky I linked to up thread.

Another video has appeared and footage has been geolocated and verified as the right place and footage is thought to be recent.

The second piece of footage allegedly shows Russians speeding out of the settlement at 140km per hour and the noise of being under fire can be heard:

Tender at tender
This footage is extremely odd. It is definitely Oleshky and it's recent. But almost no one is there.

I have counted 3 military posts which appear to be abandoned, though one looks suspicious. Why there is no sound?

If Russians really left then their army is in total disarray.

It seems like Ukraine are claiming it HAS been liberated :

Tim White AT TWMCltd
Breaking

Ukraine liberates the first settlement on the left bank of Kherson region.

Arestovych has just given the news on TV this evening, saying Oleshky is back under Ukrainian control and "The series Chornobaivka closed, the series Chaplynka opened."

I think we can conclude that something is going on with Oleshky but can't determine exactly what at this stage beyond doubt.

Clearly something has happened / is going to happen.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
RedToothBrush · 15/11/2022 02:58

From 1st November

Noel at noelreports
The Russian occupation administration of Kherson was moved to the city of Skadovsk which is 65km south.

Making use of that range...

Tim White at TWMCltd
A couple more tweets to close Monday's thread.
No hard news from the left bank of the Dnipro in Kherson or the Kinburn spit, where Ukraine sources have claimed liberated territory, but not confirmed by ZSU

There are loud explosions in Skadovsk tonight, could be RU air defence

There are a few tweets claiming that locals are reporting Russians have left Oleshky and the Ukrainian flag is flying there but Ukrainian troops haven't been sighted.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
lifesabitchandthenyoudie · 15/11/2022 08:16

Just wanted to say thank you, as always, to all your excellent updates. @MMBaranova my thoughts are especially with you and your family. I am constantly reminded how lucky I am to live in peace.

I also wish BJ could have been half the man he appears to be in 'his' writings...

Igotjelly · 15/11/2022 08:21

Xi Jinping has warned the G20 against weaponisation of food and energy in what is considered by many to be a veiled threat against Russia. I do think, now that Xi has solidified his position that we're starting to see him and China be more able and willing to take a tougher stance. Would be good to see it continue. I suspect behind these public statements a significant amount of pressure is being applied privately.

katem98 · 15/11/2022 08:34

BBC News:

"Chinese President Xi Jinping and his French counterpart Emmanuel Macron have reaffirmed their position in preventing the use of nuclear arms in the war in Ukraine, the French Presidency said, according to a Reuters report.

Chinese state news agency Xinhua also quoted Xi as saying that China and France had maintained "positive development" in relations and "progress" in bilateral cooperation."

Again, positive words from China.

RedToothBrush · 15/11/2022 09:11

Igotjelly · 15/11/2022 08:21

Xi Jinping has warned the G20 against weaponisation of food and energy in what is considered by many to be a veiled threat against Russia. I do think, now that Xi has solidified his position that we're starting to see him and China be more able and willing to take a tougher stance. Would be good to see it continue. I suspect behind these public statements a significant amount of pressure is being applied privately.

China itself will inevitably be affected by food prices rising. That risks unrest. The Chinese do not like that.

In marketing year ending in September 2021, China imported around 1.64 million metric tons of sunflower seed oil. In marketing year ending in September 2022, the estimated sunflower seed oil import volume was one million metric tons.

India is the largest importer of sunflower oil though. Again ramifications there.

Imports of Wheat in China averaged 72429.03 USD THO from 1996 until 2022, reaching an all time high of 551235.00 USD THO in January of 2022 and a record low of 10.00 USD THO in May of 2001. This page includes a chart with historical data for China Imports of Wheat.

From March:
www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/top-producer-china-adds-global-wheat-jitters-with-poor-crop-health-2022-03-10/
Column: Top producer China adds to global wheat jitters with poor crop health

Global wheat supplies are already set to be very tight by mid-2022, but top producer China's struggling wheat crop could keep a chokehold on stocks into next year.

That means China might keep its role as a key wheat importer over the next year or so, which may work in its favor given its recent trade agreement with top exporter and now global pariah Russia.

China’s agriculture minister said over the weekend that the country’s wheat crop conditions could be the worst in history after heavy rainfall delayed planting last fall. read more The harvest will provide supplies for the upcoming marketing year that lasts through mid-2023.

With the war almost certainly headed into mid 2023, there is an issue approaching for China.

RedToothBrush · 15/11/2022 09:16

Also GDP in China has already hit a massive dip over the last couple of years. Zero covid is being used as a means to increase control but high food prices do present risks for China.

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