Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 35

989 replies

MagicFox · 12/11/2022 16:40

We're still here, on 35 πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦

OP posts:
Thread gallery
86
Liebig · 15/11/2022 20:04

Igotjelly · 15/11/2022 20:03

Interesting.

There are reports it’s remains of an S-300 air defence missiles Ukraine used, or that and the Kalibr that it was gunning for. Sketchy details so far.

RedToothBrush · 15/11/2022 20:07

Liveuamap AT Liveuamap
Russian Ministry of Defense calls reports of missile strikes in Poland "a deliberate provocation aimed at escalation", denies that photos of debris of the missile appeared on the media are part of Russian missiles

The Russian Ministry of Defense: We did not launch any strikes on targets close to the Ukrainian border with Poland

And this report confirmed false, because at ~16:15 missiles hit electrical infrastructure near Kovel, 50kms to the border

Liebig · 15/11/2022 20:08

Russian MoD full of shit? Colour me shocked.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 15/11/2022 20:09

Mb76 · 15/11/2022 19:59

It was only a matter of time before something like this happened. Whether by accident or on purpose. Anyone remember the Dutch Boeing that was shot down in Donetsk by putins thugs? Russia still hasn’t been made properly accountable for that as far as I know.

Unlikely to forget that.

RedToothBrush · 15/11/2022 20:13

Phillips P. OBrien AT PhillipsPOBrien
The Russian missile screw-up that ended up killing two Poles will result in NATO invoking article 4 not article 5 (see below). The consultation will probably result in more support for Ukraine, particularly air and anti-air power. Will give Poland some real influence.

In a way the generally poor performance of Russian military equipment will help support the idea that this was not deliberate but a malfunction (and there have been many by Russian equipment in this war) . This is all just my opinions of course

Art 4 has been invoked seven times previously

Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 15/11/2022 20:14

Just to point out the bleeding obvious, if it was a Russian missile gone astray (genuinely or not) then in my view it's time to take action.

if it was the leftovers of a shot-down missile then no.

But these deaths are at Russia's door. Like the thin - skull defense - if you don't want people dead, don't go round knocking them on the head.

They ruin Chechnya, Syria, Georgia, Transnistra. They interfere with US elections and Brexit. They endlessly fly incursions into NATO airspace. They have destroyed Mariupol, tortured, raped, killed. Now it's spilling into other countries.

There needs to be measured discussion and thought, but then (imv) there needs to be action.

Igotjelly · 15/11/2022 20:16

Guardian reporting that the White House is working with Russia to determine the facts of the situation.

Hancox432 · 15/11/2022 20:19

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 15/11/2022 20:14

Just to point out the bleeding obvious, if it was a Russian missile gone astray (genuinely or not) then in my view it's time to take action.

if it was the leftovers of a shot-down missile then no.

But these deaths are at Russia's door. Like the thin - skull defense - if you don't want people dead, don't go round knocking them on the head.

They ruin Chechnya, Syria, Georgia, Transnistra. They interfere with US elections and Brexit. They endlessly fly incursions into NATO airspace. They have destroyed Mariupol, tortured, raped, killed. Now it's spilling into other countries.

There needs to be measured discussion and thought, but then (imv) there needs to be action.

Seems insane that you are potentially calling for world war 3. How many lives, Allied or enemy do you honestly think would be lost in such a conflict. I normally find your contributions very insightful but calling for potentially WW3 is just crazy.

MagicFox · 15/11/2022 20:19

Would article 5 be invoked over this given it's not a direct attack? Agree it was a matter of time before something like this happened so presumably responses have been gamed already

OP posts:
MagicFox · 15/11/2022 20:19

Agree with you @Hancox432

OP posts:
Liebig · 15/11/2022 20:20

MagicFox · 15/11/2022 20:19

Would article 5 be invoked over this given it's not a direct attack? Agree it was a matter of time before something like this happened so presumably responses have been gamed already

Unlikely.

Hancox432 · 15/11/2022 20:20

MagicFox · 15/11/2022 20:19

Would article 5 be invoked over this given it's not a direct attack? Agree it was a matter of time before something like this happened so presumably responses have been gamed already

More likely article 4 if anything. Giving Poland better defences etc and during up Ukraine Air defences in the West of the country.

Igotjelly · 15/11/2022 20:21

Hancox432 · 15/11/2022 20:19

Seems insane that you are potentially calling for world war 3. How many lives, Allied or enemy do you honestly think would be lost in such a conflict. I normally find your contributions very insightful but calling for potentially WW3 is just crazy.

Yes agree.

@MagicFox experts seem to think invoking Article 4 is more likely.

MissEstherDaniel · 15/11/2022 20:23

From reading online, many are not for it by saying they feel sick, scared then the ones in denial who think they are Mystic Meg that say it will never happen and then the men in Twitter are all for it.

Greenshake · 15/11/2022 20:23

@ReleaseTheDucksOfWar you are normally so measured. What’s going on?

MissConductUS · 15/11/2022 20:26

Igotjelly · 15/11/2022 20:16

Guardian reporting that the White House is working with Russia to determine the facts of the situation.

I saw that, too, and think it's an editing error at the Guardian. The US National Security Council spokesperson says the US is working with Poland to determine the facts. Working with Russia would only get a load of rubbish denials.

twitter.com/NSC_Spox/status/1592606767975870464

I'm hopeful that there is radar tracking data that will tell us exactly where the missiles came from.

Igotjelly · 15/11/2022 20:27

MissConductUS · 15/11/2022 20:26

I saw that, too, and think it's an editing error at the Guardian. The US National Security Council spokesperson says the US is working with Poland to determine the facts. Working with Russia would only get a load of rubbish denials.

twitter.com/NSC_Spox/status/1592606767975870464

I'm hopeful that there is radar tracking data that will tell us exactly where the missiles came from.

Oh yes I think you’re right.

Liebig · 15/11/2022 20:32

Igotjelly · 15/11/2022 20:21

Yes agree.

@MagicFox experts seem to think invoking Article 4 is more likely.

Article 4 would be before 5 anyway. They need to discuss before a reaction is performed.

MissConductUS · 15/11/2022 20:44

The WSJ has just published the following:

Missile Strikes Poland Near Ukrainian Border - Senior officials in two NATO member states say a missile hit a Polish village near the Ukrainian border

By Drew Hinshaw
Updated Nov. 15, 2022 3:35 pm ET

A missile hit a Polish village near the border with Ukraine on Tuesday, said senior officials in two NATO member states.

Polish authorities said multiple explosions hit a village on the country’s southeastern border with Ukraine.

The Polish government called an emergency security meeting soon after the explosions. Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki didn’t specify the reason for the emergency conference.

It wasn’t immediately clear if the missile was Russian. Western officials have been concerned that the war in Ukraine could spill over into a larger conflict, possibly involving a North Atlantic Treaty Organization member state.

The incident came on the same day that Russia launched at least 85 missiles across Ukraine, striking infrastructure and civilian buildings. Coming days after Russia withdrew from the Ukrainian city of Kherson, the wave of strikes was one of the largest targeting civilian infrastructure since the start of the war in February.

The explosions in Poland were caused by a missile strike, said Latvian Defense Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Artis Pabriks, who said that Polish officials had confirmed it to him. Hungary’s government spokesman also wrote on Twitter that a missile had struck Poland.

β€œWe of course can speculate, β€˜Was it an accident or not?’ But the reality is because [of] indiscriminate Russian attacks on civilian objects for weeks, [we have] now ended up with two missiles killing citizens of Poland on NATO territory,” Mr. Pabriks said in an interview. β€œBecause if this happened once, either by accident or whatever, it shall not happen for a second time. Russians should know that it cannot go unpunished.

Polish government spokesman Piotr MΓΌller didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment. Two senior Polish officials said they were waiting for more clarity on what caused the explosions and expected the government to have more information within hours.

β€œWe are aware of the press reports alleging that two Russian missiles have struck a location inside Poland near the Ukraine border,” said Pentagon press secretary Air Force Brig. Gen. Pat Ryder. β€œI can tell you that we don’t have any information at this time to corroborate those reports and are looking into this further.”

A NATO official said about the explosions in Poland, β€œWe are looking into these reports and closely coordinating with our ally Poland.”

Russia’s Ministry of Defense said statements made by the Polish media and officials about missiles allegedly falling in the area of the settlement of Przewodow β€œis a deliberate provocation in order to escalate the situation.”

β€œNo strikes on targets near the Ukrainian-Polish state border were made by Russian means of destruction,” the ministry wrote on its Telegram channel, adding that wreckage published by the Polish media from the scene β€œhas nothing to do with Russian weapons.”

The explosions hit the village of Przewodow, which sits just 3 miles from Poland’s border with Ukraine. The missile struck around 3:35 p.m. local time, landing near a grain collection point and killing two farmworkers tasked with drying the grain, residents told local media outlet Lublin 112. It narrowly missed a set of apartment buildings several dozen yards away. A second rocket landed in an empty field, the outlet reported.

For NATO and its members, missiles hitting territory of countries in the alliance and killing citizens could present a difficult situation. NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg has repeatedly pledged to β€œprotect every inch of NATO territory” and warned Russia against staging any kind of attack. In Warsaw this past March, President Biden warned Mr. Putin: β€˜Don’t even think about moving on one single inch of NATO territory.”

NATO’s founding treaty is based on a mutual-defense pact that deems an attack on any member to be an attack on all. The only time the treaty article was invoked was after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

Strikes that may have been errant, imprecise missiles aimed at Ukrainian territory near its western border may not be considered an outright attack. NATO and its members, particularly the U.S., have sought to avoid potential escalation that might ultimately lead to conflict between nuclear powers. NATO leaders and defense officials from its 30 members will need to decide whether the missile strikes rise to the level of triggering the mutual-defense pact.

When Russian drones strayed into the airspace of NATO countries in March and crash-landed without hurting anyone, NATO officials said they were investigating how the flights happened and didn’t publicly follow up on the issue.

NATO countries have had fatal encounters with Russia, and before it the Soviet Union, that both sides worked to defuse rather than escalate. In 2015, NATO member Turkey shot down a Russian jet fighter along the Turkish-Syrian border after it approached Turkey and, according to Ankara, ignored warnings to turn away. Relations between the two countries deteriorated, but the event triggered no more hostilities.

Other events that could have led to direct conflict include the 1983 shootdown by the U.S.S.R. of a Korean Air Lines Boeing 747 jumbo jet, killing all 269 people onboard. Moscow said the plane had strayed into Soviet airspace.

TokyoSushi · 15/11/2022 20:45

Agree that this won't result in a massively big escalation but it's definitely another straw on the Camels back. Hopefully it really was a genuine accident (of the most terrible kind.)

It's all such a bloody mess with no obvious way out,

Greenshake · 15/11/2022 20:54

Christ some of the lunatics on that other thread!

Liebig · 15/11/2022 20:55

Greenshake · 15/11/2022 20:54

Christ some of the lunatics on that other thread!

I'm bugging out. Load of idiots arguing over nothing that way.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 15/11/2022 20:56

The potential for WW3 has been there all along and I'd rather take a long term view of what will ~actually~ hold Russia in check than short term 'we can't risk war!' which makes it more likely in the long run.

Igotjelly · 15/11/2022 20:56

I’ve purposefully avoided it, I’m anxious enough without them whipping up my anxiety further.

To be honest I think it’s irresponsible of Mumsnet to let it stand.

JackTorrance · 15/11/2022 20:56

Lurker popping up to say thanks for the sanity on here, I've just looked at the other thread and had to back away slowly.

Swipe left for the next trending thread