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Ukraine Invasion: Part 34

988 replies

MagicFox · 23/10/2022 21:29

Welcome all πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦

OP posts:
Thread gallery
80
JimDixon · 02/11/2022 17:39

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 02/11/2022 15:03

er sorry that was to @JimDixon

Ah, but upon further research it turns out Albania is in NATO, so if we deported to Ukraine the 10,000 fighting-aged Albanian men who have arrived on here on small boats, and press-ganged them into fighting for Ukraine's foreign legion... there might be consequences.

Oh well, I was just trying to think outside of the box.

RedToothBrush · 02/11/2022 18:02

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 02/11/2022 15:13

mm. yes, wasn't me.

I am quite sure that there are a lot of decent Russians. But I have come to believe there is something profoundly wrong in the culture that allows evil to blossom regularly - a combination of the valuelessness of human life, plus the extraordinary way the Kremlin lies, plus the apparent encouragement of brutality in enough people that the soldiers historically and now commit appalling atrocities.

Yes. Totalitarianism.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 02/11/2022 18:04

The Body Keeps the Score is a book by Bessel van der Kolk who specializes in PTSD and CPTSD.

He speaks in the book of one of his patients, an ex soldier who had killed a farmer and raped his wife. He could not find rest and could not live with what he'd done.

I think he was one of tens or hundreds of thousands of ex soldiers, from all over. But there are also people/soldiers who kill and never lose sleep over what they've done. Not everyone has a conscience.

blueshoes · 02/11/2022 18:28

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 02/11/2022 18:04

The Body Keeps the Score is a book by Bessel van der Kolk who specializes in PTSD and CPTSD.

He speaks in the book of one of his patients, an ex soldier who had killed a farmer and raped his wife. He could not find rest and could not live with what he'd done.

I think he was one of tens or hundreds of thousands of ex soldiers, from all over. But there are also people/soldiers who kill and never lose sleep over what they've done. Not everyone has a conscience.

Agreed. Lots of foot soldiers in Nazi Germany melted back into civilian life with nary a care.

I found Redtoothbrush's post below about Hannah Arendt's piece on the Banality of Evil and the trial of Eichmann to be informative on this point.

aeon.co/ideas/what-did-hannah-arendt-really-mean-by-the-banality-of-evil

It is critical that the values of military training, culture and discipline that Naem and MissConductUSA are upheld institutionally and reinforced by tone from the top. That is what makes a professional army. It is otherwise too easy to lose your humanity and ultimately your soul, in a war, even if you survive physically.

I am afraid Russia as a civilisaton has lost its way for more than a century. I can understand the powerlessness of a Russian citizen at an individual level. There is a certain level of complicitness in denial. Totalitarianism is an evil that need to be rooted out.

ScrollingLeaves · 02/11/2022 18:43

IThere were English, French, and U.S rapists too. It is so strange to realise from the era of β€˜Officer and gentlemen’ war films that some us will have grown up knowing them as other people’s apparently upstanding fathers or uncles.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 02/11/2022 18:49

ScrollingLeaves · 02/11/2022 18:43

IThere were English, French, and U.S rapists too. It is so strange to realise from the era of β€˜Officer and gentlemen’ war films that some us will have grown up knowing them as other people’s apparently upstanding fathers or uncles.

Oh yes.

And as for the Japanese in Nanking - !

MissConductUS · 02/11/2022 18:54

It is critical that the values of military training, culture and discipline that Naem and MissConductUSA are upheld institutionally and reinforced by tone from the top. That is what makes a professional army. It is otherwise too easy to lose your humanity and ultimately your soul, in a war, even if you survive physically.

The US Army spends a lot of resources on inculcating what's called the moral core of the Army. An initiative was started in 2005 to codify and make clear what that means. They distilled it down to a level of simplicity and clarity that is easy to understand and remember.

The Army Values

The humane treatment of POWs and civilians is mandated by the values of honor, respect, and integrity.

blueshoes · 02/11/2022 19:26

I am sure you can find evidence of war crimes in almost every army. It is impossible to root out just as there are criminals at every level of society. But it is still important to keep trying and reminding ourselves as a civilisation the values that we stand for. Where it happens, we should still continue to shine a light on it and root it out.

What is chilling is where terror, cruelty and atrocities are acquiesced and even encouraged by the leadership and in some cases institutionalised. Yes, I am referring to the current Russian regime, Nazi Germany and Japanese in WWII.

Where even citizens of those regimes turn a blind eye is particularly dispiriting. I repeat what RTB said below:

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

Natsku · 02/11/2022 19:28

Ranevskaya · 02/11/2022 16:48

Just realised that I didn't answer the question. Neither, I think. It is hard to explain

I think that was as good as an answer as can be given really, considering the diversity of a population. Thanks for your perspective.

ScrollingLeaves · 02/11/2022 19:55

MissConductUS - Today 18:54
The US Army spends a lot of resources on inculcating what's called the moral core of the Army. An initiative was started in 2005 to codify and make clear what that means. They distilled it down to a level of simplicity and clarity that is easy to understand and remember.

MissConduct,
I haven’t read the β€˜Army Values’ yet so if what I am going to ask is explained, please ignore my question:

Do you know if they give any training about self-management when on the verge of β€œcracking”? How to recognise the signs and how to stop yourself?

The Army Values

The humane treatment of POWs and civilians is mandated by the values of honor, respect, and integrity.

MissConductUS · 02/11/2022 20:08

@ScrollingLeaves,

Do you know if they give any training about self-management when on the verge of β€œcracking”? How to recognise the signs and how to stop yourself?

Yes, this training is mandatory for everyone in combat arms. This is the course outline.

Guide to Coping with Deployment and Combat Stress

The course is actually quite good. Spotting combat stress is the responsibility of non-commissioned officers, who are directly responsible for soldiers' welfare. Non-coms are the glue that holds the Army together.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 02/11/2022 20:58

One of the things the Russian army is said to lack is old-soldier sergeants, I think.

MissConductUS · 02/11/2022 21:22

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 02/11/2022 20:58

One of the things the Russian army is said to lack is old-soldier sergeants, I think.

It's not really a career track in the Russian army, and the few NCO's they have don't exercise any tactical authority. It's one of the many reasons they can't execute combined arms operations on a modern battlefield.

NCOs: America Has Them, China Wants Them, Russia is Struggling Without Them

This is why the Ukrainians target command posts as a top priority. If you kill the officers, the troops in the field will keep carrying out the last orders they received, even if it makes no sense anymore.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 02/11/2022 22:00

A lot about this on Twitter:

The US accuses North Korea of trying to cover up munitions shipments to Russia - CNN reports

According to intelligence data, the ammunition is allegedly sent to the countries of the Middle East or North Africa, but in fact it is intended for Russia.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraine-situation-report-north-korea-covertly-arming-russia

Another emotional one, sorry blueshoes!:

https://twitter.com/igorfrommkyiv/status/1587884830125350913?s=61&t=Ql-rXJNF3kAF5PvTIYeuuQ

And from Radio Free Europe:

We asked people in Moscow if they think the war in Ukraine is going according to the Kremlin's plan.

"Yes, if the plan was to destroy Russia," said one woman.

https://twitter.com/rferl/status/1587847739320123394?s=61&t=Ql-rXJNF3kAF5PvTIYeuuQ

Of course a lot of people just want the Russian army to do better but it's clear many don't agree with Putin's war and some are finding the courage to say so.

ScrollingLeaves · 02/11/2022 23:26

MissConductUS Β· Today 20:08
@@ScrollingLeaves

Do you know if they give any training about self-management when on the verge of β€œcracking”? How to recognise the signs and how to stop yourself?

Yes, this training is mandatory for everyone in combat arms. This is the course outline

Guide to Coping with Deployment and Combat Stress

The course is actually quite good. Spotting combat stress is the responsibility of non-commissioned officers, who are directly responsible for soldiers' welfare. Non-coms are the glue that holds the Army together

Thank you very much, MissConduct. I have read through that and the advice does seem very good. It has all been comprehensively thought out and actually I think it draws together various principles that could help civilians too - doctors, and students for example. A lot of this advice is really quite lacking but would help a lot.

You can see from this how much of preventing atrocities is through good leadership, discipline, group cohesion, faith and belief in the cause, good equipment and support through food, medicines, doctors, and priests/pastors.

Well worth reading.

ScrollingLeaves · 02/11/2022 23:29

This was the guide about combating combat stress ( to avoid cmistakes and committing atrocities) which MissConductUS posted.

ephc.amedd.army.mil/HIPECatalog/Uploads/DownloadableProds/124_TG320.pdf

L1ttledrummergirl · 03/11/2022 00:44

I've not had much to add to these, but I would say that we shouldn't dehumanise any other human beings, there leads a path we should have no desire to tread.

Anyone (including our home fucking secretary Braverman) who does this should be immediately removed from the situation and given the mental health support they need.

I feel for the majority of Russian soldiers sent to the front lines, I suspect that they want to be there as little as the Ukrainians want them there. I feel for the Ukrainians forced into a situation not of their making.

Anyone involved in war crimes should be brought to justice, and those who have been victims and are now survivors need care and support so they can recover and not find themselves carrying retribution which will only harm themself further.

MagicFox · 03/11/2022 07:48

English translation of official Russian statement on nuclear use made yesterday: www.mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/news/1836575/?lang=en

Statement summary by Andrey Baklirskiy (@baklitskiy) below.

Russia made an official statement on prevention of nuclear war (in Russian for now) mid.ru/ru/foreign_pol…, following a number of recent conciliatory remarks by Ru officials, including by Pres Putin that β€œthere is no point in” using nuclear weapons in Ukraine. Short thread 1/5

The statement says that Ru nuclear deterrence policy is based on the principle that nuclear war is unacceptable, it cannot be won and should not be fought. Russian nuclear doctrine is very clear, it’s purely defensive and cannot be interpreted broadly 2/5

The statement repeats that only conditions for Ru considering nuclear use are aggression with the use of WMD and or conventional aggression when the very existence of the state is under threat 3/5

Statement confirms Russian adherence to all arms control treaties & understandings, including P5 joint statement from January 3, 2022. Russia calls other P5 not to undermine vital interests of each other, balance on the brink of military conflict & support WMD provocations 4/5

All in all, a welcome statement. But questions remain. E.g., how the doctrinal part is reconciled with Pres. Putin’s statements like Ru considering nuclear use β€œto protect its sovereignty, territorial integrity & to ensure the safety of Russian people”

OP posts:
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 03/11/2022 07:57

ISW Key Takeaways

Russian force generation efforts combined with Western sanctions are having long-term damaging effects on the Russian economy, as ISW has previously forecasted.

Russian President Vladimir Putin’s calls for a competitive Russian military industry are divorced from the reality of Russian supply chain and defense industrial base issues.

Russian officials announced that occupation authorities began integrating the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant (ZNPP) into Russian jurisdiction.

Russian and Belarusian officials continue to perpetuate the long-standing information operation that Belarus will enter the war in Ukraine on behalf of Russia, but Belarus’ entry into the war remains highly unlikely, as ISW has previously assessed.

Russian sources claimed that Ukrainian forces continued to conduct counteroffensive operations in the directions of Svatove and Kreminna, and Russian forces conducted offensive operations to constrain Ukrainian forces.

Russian forces continued defensive operations along the Dnipro River while Ukrainian forces continued their interdiction campaign.

Russian forces continued to conduct ground assaults near Bakhmut and Donetsk City.

Russian forces continued mobilization efforts and advertising for volunteer battalions while struggling with low morale.

Russian occupation authorities continued to forcibly relocate Kherson Oblast residents, nationalize Ukrainian enterprises in occupied territory, and forcibly deport Ukrainian children to Russia

Note: Russia has likely negotiated the weapon shipments with Iran and North Korea because it has significantly depleted its stock of munitions in air, missile, and artillery strikes over the course of the war in Ukraine and cannot readily restock them. [the huge stocks of shells were something pro-Russia people boasted about, so I'm surprised that they are running out]

+++

Zelenskyy: Today the Kremlin is saying that they demanded security guarantees from Ukraine. We should think for a moment about their statements.
Two hundred fifty two days ago Russia demanded security guarantees from the United States of America. After eight months of Russia's so-called "special operation," the Kremlin is demanding security guarantees from Ukraine.

+++

⚑️ 8 journalists killed in Ukraine since Feb. 24.

Spanish minister arrives in Kyiv, donates 30 ambulances to Ukraine.

⚑️ Erdogan: Russia to resume participation in grain deal.

⚑️New York Times: Russian military bloggers criticize Putin for rejoining grain deal.

⚑️ NYT: Russian military leaders reportedly discussed use of tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine.
Russian military leaders have discussed how and when Moscow might use tactical nuclear weapons in the war in Ukraine, the New York Times reported, citing anonymous U.S. intelligence officials.
"The conversations alarmed the (President Joe) Biden administration because they showed how frustrated Moscow had become over its battlefield setbacks in Ukraine," the NYT wrote. [note they clearly decided not to!]

Ministry: Western allies to allocate over 25 million euros to support Ukraine's energy sector.

⚑️ Medvedev wants to reintroduce capital punishment in Russia, kill 'traitors.'
Dmitry Medvedev, acting deputy chairman of Russia's Security Council, claimed on Nov. 2 that "yellow-blue" saboteurs who oppose Russian state policy on the invasion of Ukraine had begun operating in Russia, carrying out terrorist attacks.
Medvedev said, during WWII, there was only one sentence "for such wretches – execution on the spot, without trial."

⚑️Spain sends air defense systems to Ukraine.
Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba thanked his Spanish counterpart Jose Manuel Albares during his visit to Kyiv on Nov. 2. Ukraine received four Hawk air defense systems, an Aspide air defense battery, anti-tank missiles, guns, and ammunition.

⚑️North Korea accused of hiding ammunition supplies to Russia.

⚑️Official: Ukraine's military hits Russian air defense in Kherson.
Ukraine's Armed Forces struck Russian air defense systems near the "Spartak" stadium in the Russian-occupied city of Kherson on Nov. 2, Serhiy Khlan, an aide to the Ukrainian regional governor, said in a Facebook post. According to Khlan, these systems were also used to shell Mykolaiv.

⚑️Propagandist who called for killing Ukrainian kids back on air.

⚑️Russia bans civilians from crossing Dnieper in Kherson Oblast.

⚑️Ukrainian military: Russia has lost over 1,402 officers in Ukraine since Feb. 24.

⚑️Prosecutors open investigation into embezzlement scheme allegedly linked to governor.
The anti-corruption prosecutor's office is investigating alleged abuse of power and money laundering following an investigation by online newspaper Ukrainska Pravda about Dnipropetrovsk Oblast Governor Valentyn Reznichenko.
A company owned by a friend of Reznichenko has received Hr 1.5 billion ($40.7 million) for road maintenance, according to Ukrainska Pravda. Reznichenko has not publicly commented on the investigation.

⚑️Ukraine's military destroys 4 Russian ammunition depots in south.

⚑️Ukraine repels 12 Russian attacks in Donetsk, Luhansk oblasts over past 24 hours.

⚑️Energoatom: Zaporizhzhia power plant in full blackout mode.

As a result of Russian shelling on Nov. 2, the last two high-voltage communication lines with the Ukrainian power system at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant were damaged, Ukraine’s state nuclear operator Energoatom reported in a Telegram post.
Late in the evening on Nov. 2, the plant went into full blackout mode and all 20 diesel generators were switched on.
According to Energoatom, the diesel generators have enough fuel to last for 15 days.

⚑️According to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), effective Ukrainian guerrilla attacks are forcing the Russian leadership to divert resources from frontline operations to secure the rear areas.

πŸ™ƒThe Ministry of Defense of Ukraine thanked Germany for the supply of Gepard anti-aircraft tanks and Iris-T anti-aircraft missile systems, and also hinted that Ukraine needs Leopard tanks. The video was edited to the song Supergeil ("Super cool" - in English) by the German band Der Tourist and singer Friedrich Lichtenstein - this track is very popular in Germany.

πŸ›’Russia has become India's top oil supplier, edging past the traditionally dominant suppliers Saudi Arabia and Iraq, according to the energy cargo tracker Vortexa.
Record 946,000 barrels of Russian crude oil each day.

πŸ“ΉThe Antonovsky Bridge in Kherson was bombed recently by Ukrainian forces.
Blocking Russia's retreat [which indicates they think that trapping the Ru forces is a -good- idea still]

πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡³UN Security Council rejects Russia's request to investigate Ukraine's "use of biological weapons"
The UN Security Council overwhelmingly rejected Russia's attempt to set up a commission to investigate allegations that Ukraine and the United States are engaged in "military-biological" activities.
Only Russia and China voted for the resolution.

Appalling video of the ruin of Mariupol

😏The crew of the American military aircraft made a specific route near Russian military base in Syria, which is shaped like a penis.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 34
Ukraine Invasion: Part 34
Ukraine Invasion: Part 34
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 03/11/2022 07:57

also:

Ukraine Invasion: Part 34
Ukraine Invasion: Part 34
notimagain · 03/11/2022 08:52

www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-03/khakiv-occupation-of-ukraine-foreign-correspondent/101597260

""The Rashists (Russian fascists) were trying to suppress the resistance among the ex-police officers, soldiers and law enforcement officers, bringing them in here and jailing them in such inhuman conditions, interrogating and torturing them."

Ties one of the details in the on-line report I've read which I mentioned in a post yesterday....

I think we'll be hearing much more on this subject over the next few months and years.

Whilst I try hard to have some understanding of the situation the Russian conscripts are in it's hard to have much sympathy.

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2022 09:18

Russian casualties at the third highest since the beginning of the war again. +730.

All three of the highest figures have been this week.

950 on Sunday, 800 yesterday, 730 today.

Thats significant and very much says where Russia are currently at.

The coming days will be interesting.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 03/11/2022 09:25

⚑️Propagandist who called for killing Ukrainian kids back on air.

That didn't take long!

DrBlackbird · 03/11/2022 09:29

thereisonlyoneofme · 01/11/2022 14:34

I believe the UK spends more on foreign aid than nearly any other country

Historically, the UK tied its foreign aid to trade. Think loaning or granting money to an African country with the condition being that the government must use the money to buy British tractors regardless of whether the tractors were appropriate for the geographical conditions of the country. So that β€˜foreign’ aid was highly beneficial to British businesses.

Those in DfID long campaigned to stop this practice. For a short time, when Labour was in power, DfID was allowed to decouple aid from trade. Then when the Tories resumed government, once again aid was tied to trade. It’s the only mechanism that gave the FO any power at all in other countries.

Now, of course, there is no DfID at all. It was a highly respected development organisation with many knowledgable and experienced professionals. Shame it’s gone.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 03/11/2022 09:59

Thanks for the explanation @DrBlackbird

Shabby of the govt, but ... well, the only thing of quality that the UK has done in the last years -is- support Ukraine. The rest is all shabbiness.