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Ukraine Invasion: Part 33

990 replies

MagicFox · 11/10/2022 21:24

Starting this at 980 on the other thread because it's late and I might miss the tipping point. We're moving fast at the moment, thanks all for the analysis, insight and company

OP posts:
Thread gallery
52
Ijsbear · 16/10/2022 13:03

China were very pissed off at not being told about the initial invasion. They were caught out.

Is it certain they weren't told? I don't think that was ever fully confirmed. There was the view that they saw this as a practise-run for Taiwan: if the West did nothing, then China would have seen it as a green light.

Igotjelly · 16/10/2022 13:16

Really recommend the Ukraine the Latest podcast from Friday, includes interview with the Head of the British Armed Forces. Very measured and reassuring but also very honest.

Ijsbear · 16/10/2022 13:18

ISW Key Takeaways

Russia is conducting forced deportation of Ukrainians that likely amount to a deliberate ethnic cleansing campaign in addition to apparent violations of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Prominent Russian milbloggers who yesterday announced the existence of “hit lists” reportedly originating with the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) and targeting milbloggers for their coverage of operations in Ukraine walked back their claim on October 15.

The Wagner Group Private Military Company is likely continuing efforts to assert its supremacy over the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) and more conventional Russian ground forces.

Russia may have signed a new contract with Iran for the supply of Arash-2 drones.

Russian forces continued counterattacks west of Kreminna.

Russian milbloggers widely discussed the likelihood of a Ukrainian counteroffensive on Kreminna and Svatove.

Russian sources claimed that Ukrainian troops launched a general counteroffensive in northern Kherson Oblast.

Russian forces continued ground attacks in Donetsk Oblast.

Ukrainian forces likely struck Russian military assets situated along Russian ground lines of communication (GLOCs) in Zaporizhia Oblast and southern Donetsk Oblast.

Mobilized Russian forces engaged in a fratricidal altercation at a training ground in Belgorod Oblast.

Russian and occupation administration officials continued to enact restrictions on movement and conduct strict law enforcement activities in Russian-occupied territories.

+++

⚡️ Washington Post: US 'grows frustrated' over EU delayed financial assistance to Ukraine.

⚡️Media: France to train up to 2,000 Ukrainian soldiers.

The ISW experts cite Russian Deputy Prime Minister Marat Khusnullin who said on Oct. 14 that “several thousand” children from Kherson Oblast are “already in other regions of Russia, resting in rest homes and children’s camps. As ISW has previously reported, Russian officials openly admitted to placing children from occupied areas of Ukraine up for adoption with Russian families in a manner that may constitute a violation of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Washington Post: Iran plans to send ballistic missiles, drones to Russia (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/washington-post-iran-plans-to-send-ballistic-missiles-drones-to-russia)
The Washington Post reported, citing unnamed U.S. and allied security officials, that Iran is preparing the first shipment of Fateh-110 and Zolfaghar missiles for Russia.

⚡️World Bank: Poverty level in Ukraine has increased tenfold.
Twenty-five percent of Ukrainians would be living in poverty by the end of the year and the number could rise to as high as 55% by the end of 2023, according to World Bank regional country director for Eastern Europe Arup Banerji.

❗️Russian hackers attacked the websites of the president, government, important ministries, and the constitutional court of Bulgaria, as well as other institutions and organizations
Websites were subjected to a massive DDoS attack.
“The cyberattack originated from the Russian city of Magnitogorsk.

📣It will be much more difficult for Russians to fight in the winter than the Armed Forces of Ukraine, because compared to the Ukrainian troops they are poorly equipped, unprepared and untrained – former commander of the US Ground Forces on the European continent Ben Hodges

📰 The first reports of the death of recently mobilized Russians are beginning to arrive in Russia – The Guardian

Ukraine Invasion: Part 33
Ukraine Invasion: Part 33
Ukraine Invasion: Part 33
Igotjelly · 16/10/2022 13:23

One thing that struck me that he said was that, despite what the media would have us believe, and the reckless words of Putin, the war is still relatively contained. There are absolutely no indications that it will spill outside of Ukraine’s borders. Easy access to information and pictures etc. from the battlefield can be useful/dangerous (depending on your viewpoint) for making a crisis/war/event seem closer to home than it really is.

He was asked about what of Russia was behind the damage to Nordstream, wouldn’t that be an over spill and again he cautioned that Russia has plenty of form for carrying out malicious acts outside its borders/outside of conflict zones, this wouldn’t be new.

ScrollingLeaves · 16/10/2022 14:58

DesdamonasHandkerchief · Today 12:17
This intercepted call reveals how defensive lines operate for the Russians: first in the line are convicts guarded by mobiks in the second line, who are in turn guarded by regular forces.

twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1581601563432603648?s=61&t=m5_vMd8I4q3dj8aQ8Z8BOw

Did you hear him explain that the convicts will be in front and if they try to turn back they will be shot by him and the others in his line, while his line would in turn be shot by those behind them if they try to run back?

It seems an extraordinary, negative, almost reverse way to fight a battle: get ready to kill your own so as to coerce them to kill the enemy, or get killed yourself by your own if you aren’t careful. No retreat possible even if that might be wise.

What do you think, notimagain, or MissConductUS or other military people here?

notimagain · 16/10/2022 15:09

ScrollingLeaves · 16/10/2022 14:58

DesdamonasHandkerchief · Today 12:17
This intercepted call reveals how defensive lines operate for the Russians: first in the line are convicts guarded by mobiks in the second line, who are in turn guarded by regular forces.

twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1581601563432603648?s=61&t=m5_vMd8I4q3dj8aQ8Z8BOw

Did you hear him explain that the convicts will be in front and if they try to turn back they will be shot by him and the others in his line, while his line would in turn be shot by those behind them if they try to run back?

It seems an extraordinary, negative, almost reverse way to fight a battle: get ready to kill your own so as to coerce them to kill the enemy, or get killed yourself by your own if you aren’t careful. No retreat possible even if that might be wise.

What do you think, notimagain, or MissConductUS or other military people here?

As @AskingQuestionsAllTheTime stated upthread it's a tactic/method used by the Russians to some extent in "The Great Patriotic War"...

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 16/10/2022 15:48

I know Scrolling it beggars belief, it really lays out to the soldiers that not only are they worthless cannon fodder but they're in a hierarchy of cannon fodder!

Meanwhile in Russia: Andrey Gurulyov, former deputy commander of Russia's southern military district, complains about problems with alcoholics being mobilized, discusses the Kherson offensive and claims that Ukrainians are advancing solely to help the Democrats in the midterms.

twitter.com/juliadavisnews/status/1581467856914755586?s=61&t=m5_vMd8I4q3dj8aQ8Z8BOw

MMBaranova · 16/10/2022 16:14

The bounty put on Girkin / Strelkov reached $100,000.

blueshoes · 16/10/2022 16:47

MMBaranova · 16/10/2022 16:14

The bounty put on Girkin / Strelkov reached $100,000.

@MMBaranova who put the bounty on Girkin's head? The answer is not as obvious as it should be considering the jostling factions in Russia.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 16/10/2022 17:13

I hate the way the news blackout has resulted in the space filling up with pro Russian tweets claiming Ukrainian defeats. Better stay off Twitter for a while.

MissConductUS · 16/10/2022 19:32

ScrollingLeaves · 16/10/2022 14:58

DesdamonasHandkerchief · Today 12:17
This intercepted call reveals how defensive lines operate for the Russians: first in the line are convicts guarded by mobiks in the second line, who are in turn guarded by regular forces.

twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1581601563432603648?s=61&t=m5_vMd8I4q3dj8aQ8Z8BOw

Did you hear him explain that the convicts will be in front and if they try to turn back they will be shot by him and the others in his line, while his line would in turn be shot by those behind them if they try to run back?

It seems an extraordinary, negative, almost reverse way to fight a battle: get ready to kill your own so as to coerce them to kill the enemy, or get killed yourself by your own if you aren’t careful. No retreat possible even if that might be wise.

What do you think, notimagain, or MissConductUS or other military people here?

It's barbaric and demonstrates a complete failure by the Russian army. Soldiers fight in combat because of unit cohesion (band of brothers, if you will), trust in leadership, and the knowledge that if the situation becomes hopeless, they will be withdrawn to the next defensive position. They must also believe that their best chance at survival is faith in their noncommissioned officers, who can request orders to withdraw.

The fact that Russia has to resort to these tactics shows that its soldiers have none of the above. No unit cohesion, no trust in leadership, and no noncommissioned officers who have the trust of the chain of command. This is why, on a tactical level, the Ukrainians are beating them so badly.

OwlsDance · 16/10/2022 20:13

blueshoes · 16/10/2022 16:47

@MMBaranova who put the bounty on Girkin's head? The answer is not as obvious as it should be considering the jostling factions in Russia.

Ukraine

Hancox432 · 16/10/2022 20:19

Is the lack of any update on Sky news today part of the media blackout or has there just been nothing to report?

ScrollingLeaves · 16/10/2022 20:33

MissConductUS· Today 19:32

ScrollingLeaves · Today 14:58

“DesdamonasHandkerchief · Today 12:17
This intercepted call reveals how defensive lines operate for the Russians: first in the line are convicts guarded by mobiks in the second line, who are in turn guarded by regular forces.

twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1581601563432603648?s=61&t=m5_vMd8I4q3dj8aQ8Z8BOw”

Did you hear him explain that the convicts will be in front and if they try to turn back they will be shot by him and the others in his line, while his line would in turn be shot by those behind them if they try to run back?

It seems an extraordinary, negative, almost reverse way to fight a battle: get ready to kill your own so as to coerce them to kill the enemy, or get killed yourself by your own if you aren’t careful. No retreat possible even if that might be wise.

What do you think, notimagain, or MissConductUS or other military people here?

notimagain Today 15:09* answered
As @AskingQuestionsAllTheTime stated upthread it's a tactic/method used by the Russians to some extent in "The Great Patriotic War"

MissConductUS answered:
It's barbaric and demonstrates a complete failure by the Russian army. Soldiers fight in combat because of unit cohesion (band of brothers, if you will), trust in leadership, and the knowledge that if the situation becomes hopeless, they will be withdrawn to the next defensive position. They must also believe that their best chance at survival is faith in their noncommissioned officers, who can request orders to withdraw.

The fact that Russia has to resort to these tactics shows that its soldiers have none of the above. No unit cohesion, no trust in leadership, and no noncommissioned officers who have the trust of the chain of command. This is why, on a tactical level, the Ukrainians are beating them so badly.

Thank you both.

I think that in The Great Patriotic War they must at least have believed that they had no choice but to fight or be taken over by Hitler. This time they lack this imperative, at least if they are not pro-Russian DPR. Without that, and the cohesion MissConduct describes, there must be a terrible sense of chaos and futility.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · Today 15:48
I know Scrolling it beggars belief, it really lays out to the soldiers that not only are they worthless cannon fodder but they're in a hierarchy of cannon fodder!

A hierarchy of canon fodder is a good way of putting it Desdemona.

In that horrible programme about Russian prisons a few months ago, there was a similar monstrous misuse of one against the other: long term inmates most likely to be vicious criminals are coerced/bribed with better (or worse) conditions in proportion to their cooperation with mistreating and torturing their fellow inmates.

These tactics, in the army and prisons, of coercing violence between one ‘brother’ ti another are barbaric.

RedToothBrush · 16/10/2022 20:38

Hancox432 · 16/10/2022 20:19

Is the lack of any update on Sky news today part of the media blackout or has there just been nothing to report?

Not much seems to be being reported at all on twitter.

Lots of russian based speculation that the Kherson attack was repelled, but otherwise it seem like the usual military bloggers are largely maintaining radio silence as requested.

Hancox432 · 16/10/2022 20:45

Just strange as normally there are still lots of things to report that aren't about Kherson. Just Kremlin chat, or NATO talk on Ukraine etc.

RedToothBrush · 16/10/2022 20:46

ChrisO AT ChrisO_wiki
1/ The independent Russian media outlet ASTRA has published an interview with a claimed eyewitness of the mass shooting yesterday at a Russian army training facility. He says that the shooting arose from a dispute between Muslim and Christian soldiers. Translation below.

2/ "ASTRA journalists were able to speak to a serviceman who claims to have been wounded during a shooting at the Soloti training range in the Belgorod region and saw the incident with his own eyes. The soldier is currently in hospital in the town of Valuyki.

3/ ASTRA is not publishing the soldier's name, for the sake of his safety.

IMPORTANT: At the time of publication, we were unable to independently confirm the identity of either the narrator himself or the identities of others who appear in the story.

4/ "It all started when some of our soldiers - a Dagestani, an Azerbaijani and an Adyghe - said that 'this is not our war' and tried to write a report saying that they did not want to serve anymore.

5/ Lieutenant Colonel Andrei Lapin, when he learned this through the company commander, gathered everyone and started to say that "this is a holy war." Everything happened in the morning at the parade ground, where the formation takes place, the anthem is sung.

6/ A conflict broke out, people started pushing each other, including a few from my company.

The Tajiks told Lapin that a holy war meant [only] a war between Muslims and infidels.

7/ Lapin said that "Allah must be a coward if he does not allow you to fight for the country to which you took an oath". I personally think that's what hurt the most, the phrase that "Allah is a coward".

8/ The phrase shocked a lot of people - those who were standing there on the parade-ground. Because we also have Muslims among our officers, both Bashkirs and Tatars.

9/ After the formation, the Russians and Muslims continued the conflict, after which everyone dispersed and, it seems, calmed down.

10/ And an hour and a half later, around lunch time, they sent us all to the firing ranges, and three of the Tajiks, who were on contract service, brought their automatic rifles, they had live ammunition, and shot our commander, Lieutenant Colonel Lapin, he died on the spot.

11/ And they started shooting indiscriminately. At the range there were both contract servicemen and mobilised. I saw only the dead, of whom there were 29 people. The 30th is Lieutenant Colonel Lapin.

12/ This does not include two of the Tajiks; counting them too, there were 32 killed. I do not know exactly how many are wounded, some of them have already been taken by helicopter to Belgorod, and some of them are in Valuyki now with me.

13/ Two or three minutes before the shooting started, we Muslims were told to step aside. I remember the names of the shooters: Bikzot - he is a senior sergeant, another - Anushe, and a third - junior sergeant Ami. I don't remember their [sur]names. Junior sergeant Ami got away.

14/ Ensign Semyonov killed two of the shooters. At that moment Semenov was in the room where the boxes of ammunition are kept, where we get them. He had his own combat pistol, he was not present during the shooting, he heard what was going on, came out and shot both Tajiks.

15/ He also hit Ami in the shoulder, but Ami managed to escape. He crossed the wire where the fence was, it wasn't even a fence, but a bent wire - this is the place some people used to go into the city when it was impossible to get through the checkpoint.

17/ The Tajiks in particular [who opened fire] were fierce supporters of their faith. They were constantly arguing because they were not allowed to do namaz [prayers] on time and they were not given a prayer room," the young man said. /end

The Lapin family hasn't had a good war. The late Lt Col Lapin was awarded a medal in March by his father, Col Gen Lapin, for 'liberating Chernihiv oblast'. The elder Lapin was widely blamed for the disastrous Russian defeat east of Kharkiv last month.

MMBaranova · 16/10/2022 21:35

If Girkin / Strelkov is at the front somewhere, it would be tempting for one of his troops to surrender taking him with them.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 33
ScrollingLeaves · 16/10/2022 21:37

RedToothBrush · Today 20:46

Commander Lapin lacked judgement as a soldier if he thought it was ok to tell armed Muslims that Allah is a coward.

blueshoes · 16/10/2022 22:10

MMBaranova · 16/10/2022 21:35

If Girkin / Strelkov is at the front somewhere, it would be tempting for one of his troops to surrender taking him with them.

Thank you MMBaranova and Owlsdance for confirming that Ukraine put the bounty on Girkin's head.

Wasn't Girkin implicated in the shooting down of MH 17 passenger plane which crashed in eastern Ukraine in 2014, reportedly by a Russian-supplied Buk missile. Most of the victims were from the Netherlands.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 16/10/2022 22:12

Another mysterious suicide:

meduza.io/en/news/2022/10/16/a-military-commissar-in-primorye-has-died-in-a-possible-suicide

RedToothBrush · 16/10/2022 22:14

blueshoes · 16/10/2022 22:10

Thank you MMBaranova and Owlsdance for confirming that Ukraine put the bounty on Girkin's head.

Wasn't Girkin implicated in the shooting down of MH 17 passenger plane which crashed in eastern Ukraine in 2014, reportedly by a Russian-supplied Buk missile. Most of the victims were from the Netherlands.

Yes

Ijsbear · 16/10/2022 22:58

Girkin was very much involved in shooting down the airliner.

There is an argument that he knew exactly what he was doing when he shot down the civilian airplane and some have said there were celebrations, even when they knew it was filled with families, businesspeople and ordinary crew.

blueshoes · 16/10/2022 23:25

Ijsbear · 16/10/2022 22:58

Girkin was very much involved in shooting down the airliner.

There is an argument that he knew exactly what he was doing when he shot down the civilian airplane and some have said there were celebrations, even when they knew it was filled with families, businesspeople and ordinary crew.

What a vile person. That bounty on his head should be increased. Hope they capture him and make him stand trial.

MissConductUS · 17/10/2022 01:05

Here's another good read from the WSJ on why the Russian air force has been such a negligible factor in the war. I'd love to hear your reaction to it, @notimagain.

Failure to Control Ukraine’s Skies Betrays Key Flaw in Russia’s War Strategy - Without air supremacy, Moscow can’t stop Kyiv’s offensive or target precisely, relying on drones and missiles

By Daniel Michaels
Oct. 16, 2022 6:16 am ET

Russia’s struggling invasion of Ukraine has faced problems from poor coordination to unmotivated soldiers, but overshadowing and aggravating all was a critical blunder in the war’s early days, say Western military officials: failure to win control of Ukraine’s skies.

Without air superiority, Russia has been unable to stop Ukrainian attacks on its soldiers with U.S.-supplied M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, or Himars, and other weapons. Kyiv’s forces have capitalized on Russia’s limited ability to respond by retaking hundreds of square miles of territory from the invading army since early last month.

Russia has recently reacted to Ukraine’s battlefield successes by unleashing deadly attacks on civilian targets using missiles and drones. But even those strikes betray weakness in Moscow’s air strategy, Western military analysts say, because it must rely on remote aircraft rather than piloted planes, out of fear they will be shot down.

“Failure to achieve air supremacy is one of the decisive things that cost Russia their advantage in the war,” said Jakub Janovsky, a military analyst with Oryx, an open-source intelligence consulting firm that has tracked equipment losses throughout the war.

Russia’s Defense Ministry didn’t respond to a request for comment on its air war in Ukraine.

When Russia launched its large-scale invasion on Feb. 24, military experts on both sides of the fight assumed Moscow would target Ukraine’s air defenses and quickly work to eliminate them before pushing further. That was the approach U.S. forces took in both Gulf wars and Libya because it helps to protect attacking aircrews and ground or naval forces the aircraft support.

But after Russia achieved some initial successes hitting Ukraine’s antiaircraft systems and disrupting its communications backbone, Kyiv regrouped and managed to thwart Russian air attacks. By early March, Ukraine was shooting down growing numbers of Russian planes and helicopters. Ukraine’s air force, despite early losses, kept flying and engaged Moscow’s pilots in dog fights.

By spring, Russian warplanes were staying in Russian airspace or over parts of Ukraine firmly under Moscow’s control. Russian bombers were launching cruise missiles from behind the protection of Moscow’s air-defense systems. Russian military helicopters in Ukraine moved increasingly cautiously.

As a result of that air force hesitation, Russian ground troops that might have relied on their planes and helicopters to provide covering fire instead sat exposed to attacks from Ukrainian aircraft, drones and artillery.

Ukraine’s ability to protect its air defenses in the war’s opening weeks ranks alongside the defense of Kyiv, the capital, in accomplishments that allowed its government and military to retain control over most of the country despite relentless Russian attacks, say analysts.

“The Ukrainians are in a far stronger position than they would be if the Russians had achieved air supremacy,” said Douglas Barrie, a senior fellow for military airspace at the International Institute of Strategic Studies, a think tank in London.

Unlike Ukraine’s fight against Russian ground forces, which from the start was aided enormously by donated Western weapons, its air defense has relied largely on Soviet-era systems that Ukraine has maintained and improved over three decades. In many ways, Russia’s failure to disable the systems is more notable because Moscow uses the same equipment, including S-300 long-range surface-to-air missiles, or SAMs, plus smaller and highly mobile Buk and Tor launchers, analysts say.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, Ukraine had a particularly large number of the systems and still has a high ratio of systems to territory compared with standards of countries in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, said Mykola Bielieskov, a research fellow at Ukraine’s National Institute for Strategic Studies, a government think tank.

Mr. Bielieskov said Ukraine was able to preserve its air defenses and part of its air force by moving planes and defensive systems from their normal locations and dispersing them. He credited U.S. intelligence before the war with providing Ukraine enough warning to protect its equipment. Intelligence early in the invasion on the timing and direction of attacks also helped Ukraine position equipment where it could help most, he said.

“Russia bombed airfields and SAM radars, but the strikes weren’t successful,” Mr. Bielieskov said.

The Kremlin initially hoped to gain control of Ukraine within about three days, expecting a groundswell of support after toppling the government, and so might have limited its opening attacks, said Mr. Barrie.

“At the beginning, it was almost as if they didn’t want to break too much because they wanted the country to run smoothly” after their expected takeover, Mr. Barrie said. Russian forces also don’t appear to have launched follow-up attacks on missile batteries, radar installations or command-and-control centers to ensure they had been disabled—a standard practice among NATO members, he said.

Further helping Ukraine was Russian air forces’ lack of practice in complex suppression of air defenses, said Mr. Bielieskov. Such maneuvers require careful coordination of electronic-warfare assets with attack aircraft and missile strikes.

By mid-May, Russian losses in Ukraine had fallen to fewer than 10 planes and helicopters a week, compared with more than 60 a week in early March, according to Oryx data. Since Ukraine launched its offensive in the east and south last month, which quickly retook thousands of square miles of territory and inflicted heavy losses on Russian ground troops, its losses of piloted aircraft have risen slightly.

“The losses indicate the air force is being used as a fire brigade when local forces are in trouble,” said Mr. Janovsky.

Kyiv last week said it had downed four Russian helicopters within 18 minutes. The report wasn’t independently verified.

Ukraine, which has far fewer aircraft than Russia, also flies cautiously and has suffered losses. But its support from local populations, extensive use of drones and access to the U.S. intelligence have helped it offset its lack of air superiority. Additionally, Russian forces in Ukraine have limited ability to shoot down Ukrainian aircraft, which gives them more leeway to operate. Ukrainian planes have recently been attacking Russian air defenses in territory Moscow controls.

Now Moscow has replaced piloted planes with missiles and drones—including large numbers supplied by Iran—for strikes deep into Ukraine. Many have targeted civilian infrastructure such as power plants. A lot of the strikes are poorly targeted, resulting in widespread death and injuries.

In response, NATO members on Wednesday pledged to give Kyiv additional modern air-defense units and to create a comprehensive air-defense network. While that complex technical work will take time, it could give Ukraine one of Europe’s most advanced defenses against airstrikes of all kinds, military officials say.