5 month old and 2 year old killed by family pet pitbulls

[eucalippy]

That the family had for over 8 years without a single prior violent incident. The attack went on for ten minutes leaving the baby boy and 2 year old girl dead and the mother with an "uncountable amount of stitches and injuries"

Stuff like this makes me so sad but scares me too, I've always been scared of big dogs, but it's something I try and keep at bay and not put on to my kids. My brother and his wife have 2 Rottweilers who I was petrified of at first but have learnt to be around, they are very calm but stuff like this makes me feel like I can never take the kids round there again because what if they just turn?

I know about the whole it's owners not breed spiel, but stuff like this brings that into question surely? You can never truly know what a dog might do can you?

Link if anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about. RIP to those beautiful kids.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/baby-sister-killed-pitbulls-memphis-b2197336.html?amp

In considering the risk though, remember there are probably hundreds of thousands of golden retrievers, for example.

So ban an animal that mankind has spent over 20, 000 years domesticating, a service animal, used by police, search and rescue, prisons ? Jog on.

That's not true though. You not only can't necessarily prevent them, you may be the cause of them. On average a child a week dies at the hands of it own parents. Some 500,000 children are abused every year, most commonly by parents, carers or family members. Those are also all "preventable", but the people who should be preventing them are often the perpetrators or complicit. Over 800 children aged 1 - 9 years die from accidents every year. Those are also mostly preventable. Deaths resulting from dog attacks are in single figures.

That is not to say that dogs can't be dangerous. Lots of things can be dangerous. Lots of things are more dangerous, and parents are amongst them! We don't suggest banning all adults from being parents and seizing children at birth for their own protection. As a country we do bugger all about teaching parenting. And when a child is killed by their parents, everyone is quick to point the finger of blame at the social workers, schools, and other people who didn't kill them as if that is all their fault.

So ok, dog attacks are, in many cases, something that you can prevent, just as much as you can prevent many of these other deaths. And people should be more responsible. But guess what? People aren't. Punishing those who are responsible, those who will train their dog, observe the rules, have insurance, use the vets etc is not the answer. Those who aren't responsible will never adhere to the rules - because they don't adhere to any of the rules on anything. If they teach their dogs aggression, or abuse their dogs, then you can almost guarantee that the same applies to their children.

And as for those who advocate banning all dogs, I'll just let my service dog know that he's no longer required because he might be dangerous, then give up work and go on benefits since I won't be able to function without him.

All dogs can bite. Most dogs don't.

Do you frequently 'not understand' perfectly normal things? It's something you need help with if you do.

@PugInTheHouse

jesus. Why did you allow those two dick heads to treat the dog like that?

young or not, you were almost as bad as them

And I am sick of tictok streams of lets piss off the small dog, and loads of idiots comment and laugh. Then the dog gets blamed if it nips a child who copies the adults one day!

Totally agree. I love dogs but have always been wary about having them with kids so we got a cat instead.

@TooMuchToDoTooLittleInclination I wasn't there at the time, ex warned them to leave him alone, it wasn't like he allowed them to wind him up for a long time, for some reason they thought they were funny/invincible and did not believe my ex that they would get hurt. I don't really see how you have judged that they were allowed to do this from my post, they absolutely weren't, it may have been my wording TBH, it all happened quickly. I could type out exactly what happened but it is too long to explain but I can assure you that my ex (amongst his many faults) always had the dogs interests at the forefront. The poor dog had been very badly treated and trained prior to his short stay with us.

Hope I never have to use this, but thank you for the advice.

So ok, dog attacks are, in many cases, something that you can prevent, just as much as you can prevent many of these other deaths. And people should be more responsible. But guess what? People aren't. Punishing those who are responsible, those who will train their dog, observe the rules, have insurance, use the vets etc is not the answer. Those who aren't responsible will never adhere to the rules - because they don't adhere to any of the rules on anything. If they teach their dogs aggression, or abuse their dogs, then you can almost guarantee that the same applies to their children

There are certain breeds not suitable as a family pet no matter how they are trained and treated.

Bring back dog licences and make leads the law at all times unless in a paid for properly contained dog park. Ban them from anywhere with kids and again always on leads in public. Proper punishments for shit owners. Update the law ASAP.

Bring back dog licences and make leads the law at all times unless in a paid for properly contained dog park. Ban them from anywhere with kids and again always on leads in public. Proper punishments for shit owners. Update the law ASAP.
Although this kind of thing has an appeal after serious incidents I don't think there would ever be a political will do this. It would require stasi level of state intervention. The police can't even attend burglaries due to lack of funding, are they really going to be hunting down other wise law abiding citizens going for a walk or a run in the countryside with a well behaved off lead dog. It's a bit like the people who want bikes to have number plates, completely unworkable and expensive for very little gain. Punishes those who are quietly getting on with their lives ( ie the majority of cyclists and dog owners) whilst having little affect on those who generally don't give a shit about being a law abiding citizen.

I'd welcome the leads on in public. I'm fond of dogs generally, though.

My DC and I were surrounded by two dogs circling us, growling and barking, on a country walk. The owner was quarter of a mile away and we had to wait until she'd almost reached us and spotted them to call them off.

I think we took the correct action by standing perfectly still and not making eye contact, but someone else may not have known that and may have run or acted differently.

I was furious with the owner (and had a frightened DC) but she went off in the the opposite direction so I couldn't speak to her.

They were also large dogs, to add. Around labrador size, though I think they were some sort of cross of something.

@PugInTheHouse

We had 2 instances of adult men doing just that, 1 kept putting his finger in and out of the dogs mouth and pulling it away to make the dog snap, thought it was hilarious till it bit the top of his finger off. The other kept kicking him and eventually it defended himself and gave him a nip on his leg on warning, unfortunately a nip from a dog that strong was a nasty injury

I didn't judge that they were 'allowed' to do this, just they they weren't stopped from doing it.

your use of things like 'he kept putting his finger in & out of the dogs mouth.

'he kept kicking him and eventually it defended himself.

your bf should have stopped the first one tormenting the dog & the second from
kicking the dog.

I apologise for saying you were almost as bad, but it did read (to me anyway) that you were there, with all your 'we' comments. Your bf should have stopped them both in their tracks, but I'm not sorry the dog stood up for himself. I hope he wasn't hurt after doing so.

@TooMuchToDoTooLittleInclination sorry it was definitely my wording. People can just be idiots, especially drunk people in pubs. Nothing happened to the dog after, the men knew they were in the wrong. My ex was not a nice person at all and told them in probably extremely threatening terms that it was their fault. I used we as he lived with both of us, sorry. The dog was only with us as owner went to prison, he was rehomed properly as soon as we could find someone suitable through a rehoming charity, sadly we were never kept informed of what happened after as we had no claim to the dog at all.

The situation was awful, the dog was left at home alone as when it's owner was arrested the police were told the dog was at home alone and didn't bother to go and check at all. This was 25 years ago now, I would hope it would never happen these days.

suzi That’s also be why I mentioned using a ligature of some sort. You are wrong. It is advice given by many many dog trainers. It’s also highly unlikely anyone on here will meet a pack of wild dogs in The Gambia so I can’t see why that’s relevant? I own 3 very well trained gun dogs (and an ancient spaniel), not really into xl bullies myself…

galarunner I completely agree. Dog licences would be great but the majority of people that have out of control dogs and breeds that imo should be banned, don’t give a shit about the law. The police are too busy arresting women for writing things on Twitter so they definitely wouldn’t be able to enforce dog licences.

@PugInTheHouse

I'm glad you got away from him 💐

you sound young, not in your 40's, (I'm 50's, so you are still 'young' 🤣)

poor dog, let's assume he was found a lovely home & he lived out the rest of his life with happy & spoilt!!

@TooMuchToDoTooLittleInclination definitely not young anymore. I have no idea what I was thinking at the time, I was 18 and he seemed exciting, I am way more sensible these days.

Yes I like to think so. He was actually a lovely dog so I'm sure he would have got on well with experienced owners.

Lots of things are more dangerous, and parents are amongst them! We don't suggest banning all adults from being parents and seizing children at birth for their own protection

Yes, we do that here. It's actually very common for a baby to be seized at birth in the UK and fast tracked for adoption.. contrary to what those who know nothing about it like to trumpet.

That is done exceedingly rarely and there has to be evidence of extreme risk before a court would authorise it. The two things are not remotely comparable ... spoken someone who knows a lot about it.

I find it hard to credit some of the arguments being put forward by the dog-lovers (?dog-obsessed) brigade but the fact remains that dogs not trained properly are a danger to children - and even the trained ones are unpredictable.

And we cannot duck the fact that some people get dangerous dogs precisely because they are dangerous - that is the attraction for them. And they are very often people who are themselves anti-social.

My job entailed a lot of home visiting often to people whose lives were chaotic; and the rule of thumb was that the more dangerous the dog, the more difficult the family.

No excuses should be made for dogs that kill - they should be instantly disposed of.

Dons tin hat .......

Rarely you say? Are you a social worker then?

It's always the alleged social workers who insist it only happens in the most extreme of cases. That's a hell of alot of women who pose an imminent risk to their babies then, who are their social workers?

These were the figures as of 2018. I'm unable to see any upto date statistics but this is recent enough to show that it is something that has happened and is still happening.. alot.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/10/almost-17000-newborn-babies-taken-into-care-in-past-nine-years

Spoken somebody who also claims to know what they're talking about.

Anyhow this isn't the place to debate it I was simply pointing out that it isn't as outlandish as PP intended it to seem.

Moving swiftly on.

I've been down a bit of a rabbit hole since reading this thread and came across this social media family who train pitbulls as protection dogs. They're incredibly well trained to the extent that the owner/trainer encourages his small child to mess about with their food at feeding time. It doesn't sit well with me, it feels like an accident waiting to happen.

vm.tiktok.com/ZMFj7WBEN/

What arguments can't you credit?

Untrained or trained poorly or using aversive methods, mishoused, mishandled, needs not met etc etc, dogs will indeed pose a higher risk, add larger height and weight, heavier build and you increase that risk.

I don't think anyone has said otherwise?

Dogs with a good genetic background, well trained, well managed, needs met etc etc are far less of a risk, because they ARE very predictable, in fact actually the untrained, etc etc dogs are very predictable, the problem is that those owning them and putting people including themselves at risk, are not in possession of sufficient knowledge TO predict what will occur.

Of the recent cases to hit the media, I could have told you any one of them was a massive risk and what the flash points would be and what sort of attack might happen and when.

But no one is listening to the likes of me, no ones listening to the likes of experienced veterinary behaviourists with decades more work under their belts than I, who have been shouting from the rafters. No ones listening to the likes of ex cop turned forensic dog behaviour bite analyst Jim Crosby, who investigates dog related deaths and attacks in the US and has some interesting findings, including multiple cases where supposed dog attacks are in fact fabricated by people trying to hide child abuse and neglect!

One reason for that touches on your other point here - no ones campaigning to save these dogs, no ones saying dogs that kill should be rescued and rehabbed and sent back out to live with other people!

We do say it would be better, where possible, for dogs to be seized, taken to a secure facility where they can be assessed by behaviour experts. But we have very few such experts, or such facilities, so the dog ends up destroyed at the scene or soon after - destroying evidence (because at that point that is what the dog is), that could lead to better education, better bite/death prevention and better legislation to control human behaviour and action.

I fully agree, some people get dogs labelled as dangerous because they are labelled as dangerous - banning more breeds will not stop that! If it did.. we wouldn't be where we are now.