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Original poster

5 month old and 2 year old killed by family pet pitbulls

359 replies

eucalippy · 08/10/2022 09:17

That the family had for over 8 years without a single prior violent incident. The attack went on for ten minutes leaving the baby boy and 2 year old girl dead and the mother with an "uncountable amount of stitches and injuries"

Stuff like this makes me so sad but scares me too, I've always been scared of big dogs, but it's something I try and keep at bay and not put on to my kids. My brother and his wife have 2 Rottweilers who I was petrified of at first but have learnt to be around, they are very calm but stuff like this makes me feel like I can never take the kids round there again because what if they just turn?

I know about the whole it's owners not breed spiel, but stuff like this brings that into question surely? You can never truly know what a dog might do can you? Sad

Link if anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about. RIP to those beautiful kids.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/baby-sister-killed-pitbulls-memphis-b2197336.html?amp

OP posts:
oakleaffy · 08/10/2022 17:15

Livelovebehappy · 08/10/2022 17:12

I love dogs but would never have a pit bull or similar dog if I had young children. If children are allowed to pick and poke at them, dogs can and will at some point snap. A little Yorkshire terrier might leave a nip on the skin. A pit bull can rip off a very young child’s hand. The dogs must have been worked up by something. Can’t think that any breed of dog would randomly attack someone unless provoked in some way.

Wrong.
Just look at the you tube CCTV videos where bull breeds have attacked children and passersby.

Completely unprovoked.

I won't link, as don't want a ban.

SarahSissions · 08/10/2022 17:17

Whilst it’s true any dog can snap, pitbulls are a different kettle of fish. A dog might snap- but it will be a bite (not that that is ok) but a pitbull will go for a sustained attack. You don’t hear about Labradors doing that.
anyone with a pitbull needs their head examined.

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/10/2022 17:22

WiddlinDiddlin · 08/10/2022 12:35

The situation here in the UK is the result of over 30 years of Breed Specific Legislation.

The banning of four breeds (three of which we did not have here at the time) told a certain demographic very clearly 'this is the type of dog to own if you want to intimidate people, protect yourself, give yourself a name as someone dangerous...'

The more widespread seizing of dogs was the more those people turned to the already existing trend for other large bullbreed mixes, because you could own those without any fear of them being taken - they did not fit the strict measurements DEFRA concocted for a 'pitbull type'.

So for 30+ years, some people have been perfecting a type of dog that is huge, has a stupidly high pain threshold, is easily frustrated and so reaches high arousal VERY quickly...

Alongside that they've selected for dogs willing to show aggression quickly (in the natural world, aggression means behaviours you'd use to increase distance, stop a situation, avoid actual violence, and you'd use them last because they're 'expensive' ie could cause injury and death) and dogs with highly predatory behaviour (predation is not aggression, predation is the desire to stalk, chase, grab, kill, and consume, a behaviour sequence we have adapted and altered in many breeds to suit our own ends).

And then add in no understanding of dog behaviour, training and socialisation that is poor if it exists at all, dogs punished heavily for communicating such that they learn to go straight to a bite without bothering to growl, dogs who've learned that fighting produces a huge adrenaline rush and are as such, danger junkies...

The solution is not banning more breeds/types - if it were, we wouldn't be where we are now. We've got 30+ years of evidence that that doesn't work.

Here are my 'red flags' for spotting a potentially dangerous dog/owner combination, they're what I would mentally run through when entering someones home for a dog behaviour consult, or assessing a dog in rescue (I used to assess seized dogs and general rescue dogs). (In no particular order, it is the combination of these things thats really key!)

  • Size of the dog - does it out weigh me/handler
  • Equipment on the dog - is it aversive, designed to cause pain
  • Handling of the dog - is the handler/owner using punishment to suppress behaviour (shouting 'no', hitting, shocking, jerking a collar etc)
  • Language of the owner - mention of 'alpha' or 'he knows who is boss' or 'dominance'
  • Dogs body language - are they quiet and stiff, super aroused and over threshold, staring intently and stiff, lip curling, staring and freezing, obviously snarling/growling - which bits does the owner notice...
  • Are the dogs needs being met - walks, training, play, socialisation
  • Is the environment calm and safe for the dog or stressful and dangerous?
  • Is the dog with children regularly
  • Are children permitted to climb all over the dog and the dog expected to tolerate this?
  • Is the dog owned/handled/kept by people who routinely get drunk or use drugs
  • Where did the dog come from (breeder, rescue, bought in a pub or free ads etc)
  • Does the owner want the dog as a guard dog or to provide personal protection

For parents who are not dog people - follow your instincts and I'd look out for the following:

  • Kids making new friends particularly in secondary school - find out if friend has a dog at home before allowing your child to visit.
  • Know the dogs your child has access to - meet them, or no access!
  • If you have ANY doubts about the safety of the dog - don't let your kid be near that dog at all - better to offend someone by asking that they visit at your house without the dog than risk injury/death of anyone.
  • DO NOT rely on people complying with rules - people say they will put the dog away then let the dog out, people will open doors they're told not to open. Management fails.

This is an excellent post.

TiddleyWink · 08/10/2022 17:23

Hopingforhomebirth · 08/10/2022 09:58

I would never have my children around two two Rottweilers, ever.

Honestly this OP. I wouldn’t set foot in your brother’s house with my kids, whether I was present at all times or not. My children (or I) would never ever go inside a house with two Rottweilers in unless perhaps if they were muzzled and locked securely in another room.

You feel uncomfortable for a reason - you’re taking a risk you’re not comfortable with. So I would absolutely stop doing so.

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/10/2022 17:28

Eeksteek · 08/10/2022 12:48

It’s not that you could stop an attack. But you could certainly prevent one.

First, you meet the dogs’ needs. a healthy happy dog is a safe one. A dog ignored, ill, poorly socialised, afraid, overindulged or poorly trained is much more likely (although still very unlikely) to bite. Responsible owners prepared to learn about dogs and not treat them like dolls will be doing this already.

You give the dog a space where it can consistently go and be away from the child, where it is never bothered. This gives it an option and makes it feel safe. The child is NEVER allowed to approach the dog in its own space (generally a bed or crate). You don’t allow the child to bother the dog. Yeah, it’s cute when the baby crawls all over the dog. And most dogs will let it, because they are kind and patient. But they don’t like it. They don’t like being hugged. To them, it’s restraint. It’s unfair.

Your dog knows your child is a juvenile. It will be more patient with it. But it will also correct it and teach good manners, just as it would a puppy. If your child does not read a dog’s body language, your dog will discipline it. This often involves pinning down and nipping. It would not hurt another dog. It will hurt a child. It is not aggressive. But it will hurt, and look and sound awful. A dog should not be put in this position. That’s what you can prevent. You watch them. If the dog puts it’s ears back. If it rolls it’s eyes. Yawns with a whine on the end. If it whines. Or licks it’s nose repeatedly. It if barks like a loon. If it licks a lot. If it runs away. If goes to a corner or a trusted adult. If it grumbles. If it cries. Those things are it being unhappy and not knowing how to cope and you give it space. That doesn’t mean putting it out (because that’s often punishment) but you stop the child bothering it. If the dog trusts that you will ‘discipline’ the child and its boundaries will be respected, it won’t escalate. It doesn’t need to.

if you ignore all that, in desperation to be left alone a dog will then show it’s teeth, then growl, then air snap and lunge. If these are discouraged, or it’s really distressed it will in absolute desperation, nip. This bloody hurts and will leave bruises and puncture wounds, but probably not stitches. It is a not a bite and the dog will still get away if it can. It will probably also be sorry. They don’t like confrontation. But if you don’t fix this dog’s feeling of being threatened right now, it will bite next (maybe even next time. Their distress doesn’t go right back to zero and background stress can escalate faster) and that means someone is going to hospital. It could just bite right away - but they don’t. They do their damndest to let you know they feel unsafe. And people just ignore it.

And you teach your child the dog is not a toy, but a living being. You teach them to respect it’s body and it’s boundaries. You teach them about it’s amazing skills and abilities, it’s affection and loyalty. But you teach them that first and foremost it is a dog, not a person or a teddy bear, and the the responsibility for it’s comfort and wellbeing is ours (parents now, but theirs as they grow).

A dog has approximately the emotional capacity and intelligence of a three year old and should have about the same level of responsibility and trust in a home. Which is to say, it can largely be trusted not to hurt people or itself, if all it’s needs are met and the environment is fairly heavily modified.

Show quote history

Also an excellent post

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/10/2022 17:30

Noteverybodylives · 08/10/2022 12:48

YABVU

More men kill children than dogs do.

More cars kill children than dogs do.

More allergies kill children than dogs do.

Yes it is awful but in the grand scheme of things it’s a very small number of incidents.

You just need to do things like make sure they’re not left alone etc just like you’d not drink and drive.

But dog attacks in YOUR home are something you can prevent. The others not so much.

Unforgettablefire · 08/10/2022 17:33

SpidersAreShitheads · 08/10/2022 17:11

DS is crazy about dogs and he came to show me a "funny" dog video this morning.

I think this is the same dog, but the video he had was longer and had far more incidents. Basically it's an owner who thinks it's HILARIOUS that his chihuahua keeps snapping and biting.

I honestly have no idea what's entertaining about this. If this was a bull-type breed the potential consequences of this could be devastating. Absolutely not OK to mess around with a snappy dog like this, even if they are only small.....

What an absolute dickhead that poor dog it's a wreck. He's tormenting the life out of it. It's not funny and the dog is not to blame here.

Soubriquet · 08/10/2022 17:36

That poor chihuahua. Chis are very nervous dogs anyway so to deliberately wind it up to the point where it feels the only option is to bite, snarl and snap is cruel.

It wouldn’t be funny in a large breed. Don’t do it to a small breed.

I have chihuahuas! They are currently sleeping on my bed right now. I wouldn’t do anything like that with them

mistermagpie · 08/10/2022 17:44

SpidersAreShitheads · 08/10/2022 17:11

DS is crazy about dogs and he came to show me a "funny" dog video this morning.

I think this is the same dog, but the video he had was longer and had far more incidents. Basically it's an owner who thinks it's HILARIOUS that his chihuahua keeps snapping and biting.

I honestly have no idea what's entertaining about this. If this was a bull-type breed the potential consequences of this could be devastating. Absolutely not OK to mess around with a snappy dog like this, even if they are only small.....

This is disgusting. That poor dog is behaving that way because he is stressed and terrified and he has become dangerous despite his size. That isn't entertaining, its abusive.

I don't like dogs, I never have really, but now I have three little kids the amount of dogs who come bounding over at child level while the owner shouts 'oh he's a big softy!' has made me really aware of how dangerous they are. My cousin has a dog who is so badly trained that although he's not aggressive, he jumps all over my kids and knocks them flying because she can't control him. I'm sure they are all 'big softies' until they're not.

I have cats and one of them has got more intolerant now he's quite elderly. My kids aren't really interested in him but visiting ones can be and it does annoy him. The thing is, if he turned on you, at most you would get a nasty scratch. A dog is a whole different thing and I wouldn't keep an animal capable of killing me in my house.

parsniiips · 08/10/2022 17:47

I honestly think that anybody who has dogs that are physically able to kill a child are extremely irresponsible to have them share a home with children.

Many dogs become snappy and can bite when they have previously been calm 100% of them time, but the difference between a bite and actual death from an attack is huge.

Part of being a responsible dog owner is considering the logistics of who will be sharing a home with that dog and whether everyone is able to defend themselves should the dog turn.

musingsinmidlife · 08/10/2022 17:48

The dogbites page has a lot of stats.

In the US - there are approx 4.5 million dog bites a year of which approx 650,000 attend the emergency room due to the dog bite requiring medical treatment. Approx 30,000 people a year require reconstructive surgery for dog bites

Parents were immediately present in 44% of cases involving children.

53% of the dogs involved were family pets.

Pitbulls cause the most fatalities and injuries because their bites are 4.4 times more likely to cause a complex wound, and 3 times more likely to lead to facial reconstructive surgery, they are a heavier weight (dogs over 65 pounds do the most damage), they are 3.5 times more likely to bite in multiple locations.

Pitbulls were responsible for 65% of all injuries. Of the remaining ones, pitbull terriers were next and most likely to attack a non family member.

A study of 435 dog fatalities over 15 years - 65% were by pitbulls, 10% by rottweilers, and 33 other breeds accounted for the other 25%.

70isaLimitNotaTarget · 08/10/2022 17:51

I had a looksie on Gumtree (other selling sites are available ) one person selling a bulllbreed because work commitments and kids cannot commmit the time type reason , dog is appartently a paragon.

4 months old Sad The dog will go from Breeder -to home- to somewhere else in the space of how long ( guessing the dog was 10-12 weeks )

Makes you wonder of people had to take an exam and buy a license ( proper ££) would this help ?

And the size of some litters 10+ puppies ( I did wonder if they were runnning more than one female breeder ) you can see how people think its a lucrative business !

BluesDad · 08/10/2022 17:51

Dogs are Wolves that’s what every domestic owned dog on earth came from. Wolves are savage and frenzied killlers in the wild and the call of the wild, the beast within is definitely becoming more prevalent in today’s dogs cross bred and over bred to the point of insanity especially as the humans they live with become more and more stressed due to the pressure cooker of modern life.
If you have dogs around children you’re pretty much inviting disaster no matter what breed they are IMO!

musingsinmidlife · 08/10/2022 17:53

Pit bull 284 65.6%
Rottweiler 45 10.4%
German shepherd 20 4.6%
Mixed-breed 17 3.9%
American bulldog 15 3.5%
Mastiff/bullmastiff† 14 3.2%
Husky 13 3.0%
Unknown/unreleased 11 2.5%
Labrador retriever 9 2.1%
Boxer 7 1.6%
Doberman pinscher 6 1.4%
Alaskan malamute 4 0.9%
Golden retriever 4 0.9%
Heeler/Australian cattle dog 4 0.9%
Cane corso 3 0.7%
Chow chow 3 0.7%
Wolf-dog hybrid 3 0.7%
Presa canario 2 0.5%
Japanese akita 2 0.5%
Australian shepherd 2 0.5%
Belgian malinois 2 0.5%

musingsinmidlife · 08/10/2022 17:53

This is Breed, number of fatalities, % of all fatalities

mam0918 · 08/10/2022 18:00

love4189 · 08/10/2022 13:56

this is why I'll only own very small breeds which we can overpower if
needed. Our dog weighs 9 pounds and is gentle but if she decided to "turn" could
be kicked off easily. A large pitt bull, x bully, german shepherd etc: not a chance.
It has the potential to overpower
and to kill. I also refused to get a dog until
our youngest was 9, as even a tiny breed can harm or kill a baby/toddler.

you clearly didnt read my post of what happened to me.

one bite... no warning... over in a second... 3 surgeries... hundreds of stiches... nearly died from a 5kg (11-12lb) lap dog.

They move so fast you wont have time to 'overpower them' or 'kick them' and I was not a baby/toddler I was a pre-teen.

Namechangedforthisonetoday · 08/10/2022 18:00

I haven’t RTFT so apologies if I’m repeating. I hope none of you ever find yourself in this situation but if a dog is attacking, hitting, kicking, punching will not stop it. You must choke the dog. Choking is the only way to pull it off. Your hands, a ligature, anything, but choking is the most swift action that will bring an attack to its end.

Patapouf · 08/10/2022 18:06

Ban all dogs, it is unfathomable why people keep dirty creatures in their homes anyway but they are literally deadly.

Soubriquet · 08/10/2022 18:07

Patapouf · 08/10/2022 18:06

Ban all dogs, it is unfathomable why people keep dirty creatures in their homes anyway but they are literally deadly.

ODFO

I love my dogs. I wouldn’t give them up for anything

lfYouLikePInaColadas · 08/10/2022 18:23

mam0918 · 08/10/2022 18:00

you clearly didnt read my post of what happened to me.

one bite... no warning... over in a second... 3 surgeries... hundreds of stiches... nearly died from a 5kg (11-12lb) lap dog.

They move so fast you wont have time to 'overpower them' or 'kick them' and I was not a baby/toddler I was a pre-teen.

Show quote history

So let’s ban all dogs.

lfYouLikePInaColadas · 08/10/2022 18:25

Patapouf · 08/10/2022 18:06

Ban all dogs, it is unfathomable why people keep dirty creatures in their homes anyway but they are literally deadly.

Completely agree.

they are dangerous and filthy.

people have been brainwashed

ajandjjmum · 08/10/2022 18:36

ClaireEclair · 08/10/2022 14:58

The comedian Bill Burr talked about having to give up his Pitt bull when he and his wife had a baby. They said the they brought the baby home and “introduced” the dog to the baby and the dog growled. They immediately arranged for the dog to be rehomed with an animal trainer. He still went to visit the dog and she apparently thrived in a no child house. They couldn’t take the risk of keeping the dog.

The first dog we had when I was a child was a German Shepherd - re-homed when his policeman owner's wife had a baby, and he growled when the baby cried.

He was an amazing dog - my parents had owned GS's before we were born, but this one was fantastic, a real friend to DB and I throughout our childhood. We knew the rules though - DF was very strict with us and the dog, so we all knew where we stood.

Suzi888 · 08/10/2022 19:02

@Patapouf I’m willing to bet the average human is more dangerous than most canines. We inflict more damage, but I guess we’ll meet our demise soon enough. Humans have domesticated dogs, we’ve bred them, we are to blame. @lfYouLikePInaColadas my dog is cleaner than most humans he has a weekly bathe and his feet get washed after being outside. We don’t wear shoes in the house and my lounge rugs are a light silvery/white tone.

@Namechangedforthisonetoday you wouldn’t get your hands around my labs neck, never mind one of these xl bullies. That is terrible advice. I came across a pack of wild dogs in Gambia, that advice would get you killed. Just don’t own one, you’ll be fine.

I see this thread has gone a little batshit since this morning…

TheChestertons · 08/10/2022 19:39

There is one video of a mum and toddler being attacked by 2 loose pits that will haunt me forever. Those dogs were not frightened, they saw the child as prey. If a passerby hadn't appeared, they would have got him. They were not giving up and she was completely helpless.

They were undoubtedly owned by feckless morons who let them loose and didn't meet their basic needs. But the intensity and determination as they were trying to get the baby from the mother was something I will never forget. Haven't looked at my own dog quite the same way since tbh!

TheChestertons · 08/10/2022 19:40

Sorry that was for @oakleaffy