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Can we all start saying “Queen Camilla” now and not “Queen Consort” every time.

151 replies

FromageRouge · 03/10/2022 13:05

The BBC particularly are driving me loopy with it.

It isn’t the traditional way to refer to a consort. It was emphasised as part of the “make Camilla acceptable” campaign, but that’s over now.

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AlternativelyWired · 03/10/2022 13:32

Her Royal Horsey-Face would suffice

FromageRouge · 03/10/2022 13:32

It’s a bit like “emeritus”. Someone might introduce me as “this is from age she is professor emeritus of Gnome studies” but to address me as “Professor Emeritus Fromage Rouge” would be odd, particularly if you repeated it every bloody time.

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FromageRouge · 03/10/2022 13:34

FGSWhatNow · 03/10/2022 13:30

Iirc, the Queen Mother was so-called after the death of George VI because her name was also Elizabeth - and it would have been confusing to have two Queen Elizabeths. And probably not very respectful to call her the "Old Queen Elizabeth", or something similar.

I agree that the "consort" bit should be dropped now - it seems overly-prissy and is making more of an issue of the "history" than is needed. Times have moved on. She's the Queen whether people like it or not.

That’s true. Queen Mary was usually just referred to as Queen Mary after she was widowed. No need to mention “dowager” very often.

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SummerBummers · 03/10/2022 13:35

She is Queen Camilla regardless of what she’s called on the tv. In the same way she was technically Princess of Wales. They are now The King and Queen. It’s silly messing around with The Queen Consort or whatever.

LuciaPopp · 03/10/2022 13:35

I suspect the BBC etc will switch once people stop hearing "the Queen" and thinking of Queen Elizabeth. Not sure it's anything to do with the earlier scandal- she has exactly the same status as Queen Alexandra, Mary etc.

I'm still at "Prince Charles, sorry, King Prince Charles" so it may take a while.

EdithWeston · 03/10/2022 13:36

When Charles dies and if Camilla is left I think they will refer to her as Camilla Dowager Duchess of (something) as she's not Williams mother obviously. Be a tricky one though to decide what to call her....

She'll stay as Queen Camilla.

Just like Queen Mary (a consort) stayed as Queen Mary after she was widowed.

There is only a need to use a different version when two living Queens have the same first name. Queen Elizabeth (consort of George VI) needed a version to distinguish her from Queen Elizabeth (regnant), and she opted to be 'Queen Mother' as she did not want to be called 'Dowager Queen'

There will be no need, because if she outlives her DH, we shall then have Queen Camilla and Queen Catherine, so no scope for confusion

FromageRouge · 03/10/2022 13:36

In fact “emeritus” is a closer equivalent to “dowager”, but it’s all like saying “Mr Jones Esquire” in conversation.

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decafsoyaflatwhite · 03/10/2022 13:37

I’m fairly certain that if Camilla outlives Charles she ‘should’ be referred to as Queen Camilla even when William is King. Queen Elizabeth II’s grandmother outlived her husband and her own son, and as far as I’m aware she was still referred to as Queen Mary (not the Dowager Queen/Dowager Queen Mary) when her son was king and when her granddaughter was queen. I might be wrong though.

The Queen’s mother was called The Queen Mother to avoid confusion, or else they both would have been Queen Elizabeth.

WinnieTheW0rm · 03/10/2022 13:38

I'm still at "Prince Charles, sorry, King Prince Charles" so it may take a while

I think there is going to be quite a long time when people find themselves accidentally saying 'Pr-ing Charles' and singing 'God Save The Qu-ing'

Branleuse · 03/10/2022 13:39

Or we could stop fawning over the lot of them with their bullshit titles and nonsense. It only encourages them.

Fink · 03/10/2022 13:40

As pp. have said, the title Queen Mother was only used because they were both called Elizabeth, ordinarily the widow of a king would just be called Queen Firstname. Unless William divorces his current wife and marries someone called Camilla, that won't be an issue this time around so Camilla (if she outlived Charles) would just be known as Her Majesty Queen Camilla. She may be popularly known as something else, but that would be her usual style of address.

I don't have an issue with Queen Consort at the moment. It will naturally fade out in time. Already you see references to 'the King and Queen'. When referring to just her, without the King, IMO it's too soon to move straight to 'the Queen', people wouldn't understand it meant her.

NotLactoseFree · 03/10/2022 13:43

Personally, I think the consort title should be widely used. And that if we somehow land up with a "proper" queen again in the next 100 years, that her spouse should be the "king consort" and we should stop this ridiculous idea that king is always senior to queen. That's why Philip had to be "prince" and not "king".

We will never sort out ridiculous assumptions about male coming first if we don't start using male words that are traditionally more "senior" to women in a way that makes it clear that they are NOT senior.

But as we're unlikely to have a queen for a very long time, my point is lost.

Thegreenballoon · 03/10/2022 13:47

The media have only just stopped calling her Camilla Parker-Bowles. They still refer to Kate Middleton. It’s going to take time…

Pushyoupullme · 03/10/2022 13:47

I agree that she would be the Dowager Queen officially. Maybe she would go back to being the Dowager Duchess of Cornwall, or some other Dowager version of a title that she holds or has held? One European monarchy that has, I think, a retired (abdicated) Queen, now called Princess so-and-so (sorry wasn't paying proper attention when reading that article) but this wouldn't be appropriate in this case probably? Tricky but I bet they have a plan.

Pushyoupullme · 03/10/2022 13:48

We will never sort out ridiculous assumptions about male coming first if we don't start using male words that are traditionally more "senior" to women in a way that makes it clear that they are NOT senior.

This is a very good point indeed.

Novum · 03/10/2022 13:48

lightand · 03/10/2022 13:19

Camilla fine.

Queen Camilla not fine.

Queen consort. A bit wordy I agree, but better than other alternatives.

Why is Queen Camilla not fine? George VI's consort was known as Queen Elizabeth, George V's as Queen Mary, Edward VII's as Queen Alexandra.

SenecaFallsRedux · 03/10/2022 13:49

"Consort" is not usually part of the title, and I hope in time they drop it. Camilla is The Queen.

No queen consort in British history has had it as part of her official title.
The only time "Consort" has been used as part of an official title was for Prince Albert who was Prince Consort, designated so by Queen Victoria.

And as others have said, if she is living when William becomes king, she will be simply Queen Camilla. Catherine will be The Queen.

Novum · 03/10/2022 13:53

urbanbuddha · 03/10/2022 13:23

I think it's too soon.

Why? If QE had had only daughters, the one succeeding would be the Queen from the moment of her death. Likewise William will be the King the moment his father snuffs it.

starfishmummy · 03/10/2022 13:57

ofwarren · 03/10/2022 13:25

Thank you, I've never heard of The Dowager Queen.
I'll look it up now.

Queen Mary was consort to George V, and was still known as Queen Mary after her husband died.

Deadringer · 03/10/2022 13:58

Too soon.

WakeUpAndBe · 03/10/2022 14:00

FromageRouge · 03/10/2022 13:17

The last Queen Consort was Queen Elizabeth (later the Queen Mother).

Im having a quick Google and it seems at the time nobody referred to her as “the Queen consort”.

Even the BBC’s history page calls her “Queen Elizabeth”;

www.bbc.com/historyofthebbc/anniversaries/may/coronation-of-king-george-vi-and-queen-elizabeth

The comparison isn’t the same. Too much baggage with Camilla.

She’s not the Queen Mother.
She was the mistress who helped end the marriage between the Queen Mother (Diana) and the King.
Camilla has become Queen Consort through adultery (see also the 10 commandments the CofE preach).
Consort is a reminder that Camilla is not quite Queen Mother material, because that’s true. She is not the mother of the next in line, she’s the other woman.

Queen Consort sounds accurate.

FromageRouge · 03/10/2022 14:01

Novum · 03/10/2022 13:53

Why? If QE had had only daughters, the one succeeding would be the Queen from the moment of her death. Likewise William will be the King the moment his father snuffs it.

Exactly this.

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SenecaFallsRedux · 03/10/2022 14:02

We will never sort out ridiculous assumptions about male coming first if we don't start using male words that are traditionally more "senior" to women in a way that makes it clear that they are NOT senior.

I agree.

There is some precedent in Britain for the husband of a queen regnant to be given the title of king. Philip of Spain, the husband of Mary I of England was named co-ruler when they married and called King of England. He spent most of his time in Spain, though, and never really functioned as a ruler in England. And his title did not survive Mary, who was succeeded by her sister Elizabeth.

Henry, Lord Darnley, the husband of Mary Queen of Scots, was made King consort of Scotland, although “consort” was not part of his official title.

Philip of Spain and William of Orange were co-rulers, but William's title survived his wife's death, unlike Philip's case. Mary II had a superior claim to the throne as the daughter of James II and VII (William was the son of James’s sister), and William's secondary position in the succession was recognized in the settlement which provided that if Mary died first and William remarried, any potential children with a second wife would be after Queen Mary’s sister, Anne, in the succession, thus making her, after Mary's death, the only female Heir Apparent in British history.

One of the reasons for husbands of queens regnant generally not being called King is the historical notion that King is a higher title than Queen. In many European countries where the Salic law prevailed, only men could inherit the throne and so queens in their own right were very rare. And even in countries that allowed women to reign, men took precedence in the succession until very recently (and still do in some).

It's certainly possible with more egalitarian rules about succession, the notion that King is a higher title can change and male consorts can be called King. With more queens regnant on the horizon all over Europe (Sweden, Norway, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Spain) and a move to have more equality between the sexes in these matters, we might see the King Consort title revived for the husbands of Queens.

RoseAndRose · 03/10/2022 14:02

Diana was never a Queen, let alone a Dowager Queen/Queen Mother

FromageRouge · 03/10/2022 14:03

WakeUpAndBe · 03/10/2022 14:00

The comparison isn’t the same. Too much baggage with Camilla.

She’s not the Queen Mother.
She was the mistress who helped end the marriage between the Queen Mother (Diana) and the King.
Camilla has become Queen Consort through adultery (see also the 10 commandments the CofE preach).
Consort is a reminder that Camilla is not quite Queen Mother material, because that’s true. She is not the mother of the next in line, she’s the other woman.

Queen Consort sounds accurate.

Constitutionally, she is in exactly the same position as Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon was. She’s a woman married to a King Regnant. That’s all that matters.

It’s only the ex-mistress aspect that is causing this silliness.

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