Why are HR people so toxic?

[workingwork]

Bullying and gaslighting, making up complete lies about you, using minor irrelevant details about you to twist into a story.

I know I know, HR are there to protect the employer, not the employees, but come on.

One of the HR people is my line manager, I tried complaining to her manager and I should've known it would all backfire. They're always going to turn things around and blame it on you, aren't they.

I was in an abusive relationship once and the techniques they use are very similar. I'm not exaggerating.

I know there's nothing I can do about this. The only option I have is to walk out as it's clear their poisonous behaviour will never stop.

We used to be told HR was the conscience of our organisation. But I've known a few who didn't seem to have a conscience at all!
Where there has only been one HR manager they seem to be approachable, but a team tended to be like the popular girls at school. And oddly they were always women, although DH is HR trained, but has always stayed well away.

You've only worked at Fortune 500 companies. A completely different kettle of fish to SMEs.

I am currently working somewhere where several people in a row have all chosen to leave because of one particular HR person, so the common denominator is her. This happens in numerous workplaces with high staff turnover. The common denominator is the person who's still there.

That's right blame the individual and not the company.

That's to always movingforwards

This ^^

Just giving my opinion based on experience is all.

No idea what's it's like working for a little local company, outside of a Saturday job I had in a sandwich shop as a teenager.

I’m an HR Director of a large company across 22 offices. After 20 years in HR, I don’t recognise the vitriol on this post.

My role is to protect the company whilst ensuring that we engage and motivate employees. Most employees are a name on a spreadsheet, as I only have time to really know the leaders, stars and underperformers.

Every day I encounter a) shitty obnoxious managers who I bring back to reality with a virtual slap to behave decently and fairly and b) vexatious troublesome employees who I manage out of the organisation.

I love my role. I like the breadth and depth of my knowledge across the company and the influence and impact I can have on the direction taken by the CEO and heads of each division to increase revenues.

Across my team, we save millions of pounds a year, either through efficiencies or mitigating the risk that would land us clearly in court (often times not due to an actual poor decision by a manager, but because of potential failure to follow the statutory process laid down by the government).

Plenty of people have hated me. They’re the ones where I’ve said enough is enough and exited them from the company. I’ve had to do this within my own team too and it’s a happier place as a result.

There are shitty people in every job in the world. You’ve obviously got a massive chip on your shoulder OP. Hope you manage to find some light and happiness, as it’s not healthy to carry that around with you.

@TessIRX
*Most employees are a name on a spreadsheet, as I only have time to really know the leaders, stars and underperformers.

Every day I encounter a) shitty obnoxious managers who I bring back to reality with a virtual slap to behave decently and fairly and b) vexatious troublesome employees who I manage out of the organisation*

What you have written here demonstrates in a nut shell exactly why so many people have a problem with HR. The vast majority of people in your organisation are probably working their butts off and perhaps have special skills and qualifications which are essential to the success of the organisation. Imagine how they feel having to approach you to ask for anything, like a pupil approaching the staff room. Can’t you see how strange and off putting your attitude is? The employees are the centre, the core of the organisation. It wouldn’t exist without them. Your job wouldn’t exist without them. They really don’t deserve such a dismissive and disrespectful attitude.

@DickDarstedly we have thousands of employees. The majority of staff contact the HR Ops team if they have a query about their benefits or employment terms and Payroll if they want to ask about tax and L&D if they want to do training or appraisal query and Recruitment if they need to hire into a new role.

As mentioned, I deal with the MDs, the high potentials and where we have issues. Most staff wouldn’t need to contact me. I have some really very nice, warm and empathetic people in my team, who would be more appropriate.

@TessIRX but why can’t you be warm and emphathetic too? It’s a really really basic fundamental that people work better and are more loyal if they feel they are noticed and appreciated. That should be a core HR value.

I Think HR culture really changed in the 1980s and up to the present day. With there being a shortage of workers now I hope there will be another shift. Employees are the most important resource a company has. Companies need to pay attention to showing employees that they are grateful that they have chosen to work for them, not the other way around.

@DickDarstedly so you expect HR professionals to know individually 10000+ employees.

Of course I don’t expect HR to know each employee individually. I didn’t say that. It is just that it comes across very clearly in @TessIRX post how insignificant most of the employees are to her and most of the people who work in HR are posting about the problems employees cause. This is exactly what most people in this thread are posting about. HR staff very often give the impression that employees are annoying and untrustworthy. I have never, ever had a run in with HR, I have always been a most obedient and hard working employee but I feel like a naughty child visiting the heads office if I have to see HR. Why? The employee is an extremely valuable asset to the organisation. That should be reflected in attitudes.

@TessIRX : After 20 years in HR, I don’t recognise the vitriol on this post.

Also @TessIRX : Plenty of people have hated me.

@workingwork your vitriol is against the profession in general.

The people who’ve hated me are the ones I’ve fired, disciplined, involved the police, invited to resign or demoted. In the first three categories I’ve got theft, sexual abuse, harassment, embezzlement, child pornography, bullying, affairs with junior employees, bringing the company into disrepute, drunk on the job, asleep at their desk, peeing in a plant pot in reception, blinding a colleague in one eye, using work email to arrange “lunchtime liaisons”, “losing” £100k in petty cash, casually telling colleagues that they plan to blow up the building… and that’s before the general cases of tardy, inept, general underperformance.

Totally fascinating role.

P.s. I’d hate someone who fired me too 😂

Indeed. I think most employees would have no idea of some of the shit that goes on behind the scenes..... I was totally shocked when I got my first job in HR how badly some seemingly professional people behave.

We had to sack someone who was viewing pornography on his computer at work and then very shortly after another colleague for fabricating her professional qualifications. Not long after someone told me to my face in a meeting that rumours were circulating that HR were forcing people out of the business and used those two aforementioned colleagues as examples. Of course you can't say anything about what's gone on behind the scenes or the reason people have left so if someone has said "those bastards have always had it in for me" before they're removed from the building then of course that's the rumour that ends up being perpetuated.

OMG @TessIRX where do you work ?
Someone needs to make a documentary about it 😄

It’s very subjective isn’t it - eg

An employee raises a bullying grievance against their line manager. It is investigated by HR, upheld, the manager taken to disciplinary and dismissed.

The employee who raised the grievance has been protected and feels happy with the outcome, but the line manager who was also an employee is going to feel aggrieved and poorly treated by HR. Same scenario, two very different takes on it.

Most of the examples here are of extreme cases, it almost seems they are given here in order to justify why HR have to behave like the police.

Most employees never get into those situations though. Most interactions between HR and employees are therefore surely neutral or benign. So, why isn’t there an HR culture which reflects the fact that most employees are hard working, pleasant, crucial to the functioning of the organisation, valuable and worth motivating and retaining? Why do so many people, even those who have done nothing wrong at all, find dealing with HR such an uncomfortable experience where they are made to feel really unimportant?

Is managing someone out not the same thing as constructive dismissal?

@workingwork

No. Constructive dismissal covers specific circumstances related to protected characteristics as per the Equality Act.

Fortunately for everyone things like being a bully or being incompetent are not covered in that.

@DickDarstedly

I think the reticence is based on the HR model the individual companies use.

I mentioned upthread about transactional vs strategic. Transactional HR are absence and disciplinary case managers (and sometimes payroll), there’s not a lot personal about it. Strategic models do those things but in a more nuanced case by case basis, and also spend time invested in employee engagement, learning and development, Equality and Diversity which fosters a genuine two way relationship.

Transactional HR has had its day in my opinion, as have the professionals who enjoy working within it. It does not fit with the expectations the average employee has of their work life, rightly so.

Right, so if I'm being bullied and gaslighted at work, and they're deliberately making my working life so unbearable that I have no option but to quit, but it's not based on characteristic discrimination, then it's not illegal and nothing can be done about it?

I totally agree with this.

I'm lucky really that I work within a great organisation that is strategic and genuinely values its employees. I think perhaps if you work in a small, more traditionally transactional company then it only takes a couple of shit employees (whether that be HR, line managers or other colleagues) to really impact the rest of the staff. I think it may also be true that small companies like this aren't going to attract the best HR staff (why would you want to work there when you could work for a larger organisation that was forward thinking and cares about people? You're not unless you're a bit rubbish and can't get another job.)

OP, is there anyone at work you can talk to? Your boss, their boss, a more senior member of the HR team? Ultimately if staff don't speak up then nothing changes if it's not known about. If staff do speak up and patterns start to be spotted then that can help bring about change.

@workingwork

Was your post about managing someone out being constructive dismissal a response to my grievance example? I thought it was which is why I responded re protected characteristics, it read as though you were questioning dismissing someone for bullying. My apologies, I can see I got that wrong!

Your situation sounds dreadful, I have been there myself - it is absolutely soul destroying. I’m happy to give you advice if you want to DM me? Absolutely fine if you don’t of course. Biggest bit of general advice I can give you is - write every incident chronologically, if you have messaged someone on WhatsApp about it previously in real time - use the chat search function for the dates. Write it down factually with detail as to how it made you feel at the time. Bullies absolutely rely on you not being prepared to defend yourself.

@ThreeRingCircus The person who's bullying me is the HR Manager! She's my line manager. I spoke to her boss who's the HR Director and guess whose side she took. This is why HR people get away with this stuff, if they're the ones bullying you then who are you supposed to report it to?