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Another black rapper dead

130 replies

PatricksRum · 29/09/2022 05:17

When are we going to address the poor life expectancy for black men?

When are we going to address the poor outcomes for black women during childbirth?

What can be done?

Another black rapper dead
OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 29/09/2022 09:57

In England, life expectancy at birth for men living in the most deprived areas is 74.1 years, compared with 83.5 years for men in the least deprived (a difference of 9.4 years). For women, the difference is slightly smaller, at 7.7 years

Between 2014 and 2016, men from the most-deprived tenth of areas in England were expected to live almost 19 fewer years in good health than people from the least-deprived tenth of areas.

Whats worse is none of this takes account of the last 3 years. The problem has been made significantly worse by the effects of the pandemic - both direct and indirect.

If you are non-White you are more likely to be poorer in the uk. That's an issue in its own right because of the knock on effects.

But if you are white and very poor your prospects aren't great either.

Certainly in the uk, the issue is about inequality and poverty first. If you improved that, you should improve health across the board. The secondary issue is the point that poverty affects non-whites more. That may not be down to race alone though. It could be a pattern relating to immigration and not speaking English as a first language which limits educational and job opportunities throughout life. If the pattern continues in the children of immigrates who were born here and their children then its even more significant. What we actually see in the uk, is non-White children are starting to perform better than poor white boys. Which highlights something else entirely. There are definitely issues over black kids getting harsher punishments for the same things as white kids and the way they are treated by teachers and police, but that isn't necessarily the driver of life expectancy issues.

There certainly are racist barriers at play - it's indesputible that pregnant black women are treated in a far worse manner than white women. Stereotypes are at play.

And we know that stuff like research is all heavily tilted because its most relevant to white males - cos that's the research template. We know that genetics come into play here - covid showed this up. It also showed up occupational differences where working class jobs were more likely to be amongst non-Whites (again relating to economics). However it also showed the areas of health that non-White doctors specialised were the riskier / less high status professional roles.

The whole thing does need to be properly unpicked and separated into socio-economic issues and racist issues because the danger is, if you only see the racism and not the socio-economic side of things you end up with a counter productive situation where there is a backlash and resentment from poor white backgrounds who have been overlooked. That doesn't help solve racism. It just produces it as a byproduct.

You move forward by looking at the whole picture and no producing blind spots to disadvantage because you only look at it through the lens of race or whatever else it happens to be.

There is definitely a problem for young black men. In the US even more so.

I can't help but think that saying black rappers dying early shows all black men have a problem is actually racist in itself. It suggests that all black men are into rap culture and the associated gang culture. Which isn't true and is a pretty awful stereotype. It suggests that black rappers are fully representative of all black men. That's nonsense. It's reductive.

Strangely enough even in the US, if you look at middle class black men you see different lifestyle patterns.

You run the risk of straying into the bollocks of Rupa Huq saying Kwasi Kwantang is only superficially a black man if you use black rappers to suggest they are representative of all black men. It is all about how black men are massively stereotyped. No Kwantang is a black man who is super privileged, but he's still a black man.

Which brings us back to the issues around economics and how what you should be talking about is why non-White people are more likely to live in poverty and how do we address this, rather than criticising those who break the stereotypes for, well breaking the stereotypes. And pretending that stereotypes are not stereotypes and are fully representative, when they are not.

If you don't want to be racist, you properly unpick this and don't pull examples selectively out of your arse. You use proper data and proper research. Research like the stuff that shows that survival rates for major operations are poorer or that black women are more likely to have still births because of preconceptions about black women. Or that genetic differences matter because of things like the availability of donors in certain communities are much lower. Or how confidence in non white communities in things like vaccination is much lower (and what those reasons are and how they may have historical reasons such as racist medical experiments). Some of these things are racist. Some of them are circumstantial. Some of them are cultural. Some of them are connected to greater mistrust of authority which relates back to racism (indirect effect of racism but not due to a direct racist event. Even if you were to eliminate all racism tomorrow, you would still have a hangover from racism in the past due to mistrust.)

I really do wonder about people shouting racism when they are using black male rappers as their gotcha to prove the point. It's actually part of the problem. How do black men break out of that cultural box of stereotypes? If they do they risk being called a racial traitor in someway or not being somehow black enough. How does that actually help?

Use data. The data tells the story without the stereotypes. If there's missing data, ask why its missing.

yousexybugger · 29/09/2022 10:11

Really messy thread.

Maternity outcomes for black women is a real issue, yes, but why is this being conflated with some US rappers dying prematurely, sad though that is? Why do they turn to drugs? Well, why do a lot of musicians turn to drugs? Some could be due to appalling upbringings but it is quite a music/ celebrity industry specific problem. If the thread is saying more black people/ men turn to drugs across the board then it should include some stats saying that, not a random list of US celebs.

I haven't delved deeply into the stats but ONS is showing (even if not bang up to date so possibly could have changed post covid, but again, show that with data) that there is broadly a longer life expectancy in the UK for black populations. Is the thread specifically about black musicians? In comparison to whom? Who is the 'we' in 'what do we do about this'? What would you suggest that the UK residents who make up the majority of posters do about US rappers dying early? Black women's maternal outcomes could be a different question but it's been obfuscated on the thread.

I'm not sure why grooming gangs are being mentioned. This has nothing to do (as far as I know) with any of the people named on the list, so why is it being raised here?

White people aren't suggesting they're victims here (with the exception of grooming gang poster), simply pointing out the lack of clarity in the original post.

SuperCamp · 29/09/2022 10:14

Racism affects the lives of black men in many and complex ways.
Racism affects the lives, and maternity outcomes, of black women in many and complex ways.

All racism needs exposing and tackling.

Palmfrond · 29/09/2022 10:15

PatricksRum · 29/09/2022 09:40

And yet again we have a thread full of white people making themselves the victims.

The picture contained just a few examples.

I notice how the whataboutery posters have conveniently missed out the part about black women dying in labour.

If they're all caused by drugs then why are they turning to drugs?

Eh, not really. I mean, your thing about the life expectancy of American musicians is totally irrelevant, but on the other hand, some of the responses have been a bit deranged too.
So anyway, the thing is that I think white Irish and Bangladeshis have the poorest outcomes for ill health and early mortality in the U.K. I’m not sure about health but I believe Irish travellers have the highest early mortality rate in men by quite a high margin. Irish travellers and Gypsies are postulated as having the worst outcomes for maternal morality but the data is insufficient in part because of the degree to which those two groups are marginalised in the U.K. I don’t know about Bangladeshi maternal mortality rates but I’m guessing they’re also likely to be poor due to the generally disadvantageous socio economic distribution of that community in the U.K.
And yet, all we hear about from you, @PatricksRum , are the poor outcomes, real or imagined, of Black people (a category, like the “white” category offered by the ONS which includes Irish Travellers, is very far from monolithic), which suggests and promotes a kind of tunnel vision which prioritises one group of any other. Meanwhile, back in the real world, organisations are at work trying to find better outcomes for ALL communities whose access to health care is compromised by whatever cluster of the many different factors at play.
So, yes, you are correct that we have white peoples making themselves victims, but we also have presumably non-white people making themselves out to be victims too.

Choconut · 29/09/2022 10:18

www.npeu.ox.ac.uk/assets/downloads/mbrrace-uk/reports/maternal-report-2021/MBRRACE-UK_Maternal_Report_2021_-FINAL-_WEB_VERSION.pdf

This is the MBRACE report on improving mothers care with a lot of info beyond the headlines.

Palmfrond · 29/09/2022 10:24

@RedToothBrush thank you, your post is the one I would have written if only I was smart enough.

A3285633 · 29/09/2022 10:27

Patrick’s Rum, I’m not remotely interested in why Black American rappers are dying. Maybe ask on an American site if you’re really interested or do you like stirring up bad feelings this side of the pond?
You've got enough problems in your country how about taking some actual steps to make a difference there?

A3285633 · 29/09/2022 10:43

Patrick’sRum, you first…..tell us what YOU’RE doing in the USA to address the issue?

RedToothBrush · 29/09/2022 10:44

Highlighting the life expectancy of black rappers highlights the life expectancy of black rappers. Thats it. It doesn't say anymore. Or any less. Plus we don't really know how it compares because we have yet to get to the point in history where we have reached the point where full life expectancy should be.

It is not necessarily representative of all black men in the USA (where guns are common). Never mind the situation in the UK. That a massive conflation of ideas.

Black male rapper do not equal all black men in the uk.

The reason that the point about black mothers is so compelling and no one has questioned it on this thread is because there is no conflation. The information is representative. It sought to highlight the structural inequalities and demonstrate them. Thats why its so compelling. Plus it relates directly to the uk.

The experience of black men in the uk is fundamentally different. It has racism and structural inequality and some things in common with what is happening in the US. However since we are not the US it's also got major irrelevances.

We should perhaps be looking towards Black British male artists and how they are more representative of black males. How many have been killed in gang violence or drug related issues? Is it on the same scale and as high profile as in the US? This matters. The cultural differences do matter.

On the whole if you look at black male music artists in the uk, they tend to be more positive as role models than many of their black counter parts. I'd argue there isnt the same level of pressure to be 'authentic' and still part of the gangland culture in the same way. From the interviews I've seen there has been a movement of wanting to escape that US leaning towards glorification of that culture and some of the more negative attitudes to women and to escape the trap of crime and be better role models from a fair number of black British artists. The music is different. It's critical of authority and being left out to dry but not in the same way as the lyrical ultra masculine gun culture of the states. Indeed a few have said they couldn't identify with that US culture because it didn't match their life experience and that was one of the things that led them into music to explain their life experiences and how they were different. They experienced racism and violence and poverty but it manifests in a different way in the uk and the outcomes are different. Less guns is important even with knife crime. The drugs exist but even that is slightly different in part because of the reduced availability of prescription drugs.

All of these things matter.

This doesn't mean that there isnt racism.

Its saying that black male rappers in LA do not represent the life experiences of a black man in London. Saying it does, is the racist bit.

AisforApplePie · 29/09/2022 11:35

And isn’t David Bowie dead

Um, I hate to break it to you @Yabado

NippyWoowoo · 29/09/2022 11:53

risefromyourgrave · 29/09/2022 07:48

You could say the same about movie stars. Off the top of my head River Phoenix, Heath Ledger, Corey Haim, Brittany Murphy, Aaliyah, Anton Yelchin, Paul Walker, Tupac, Jonathan Brandis, Chad Boseman. It wasn’t one singular thing that caused any of those deaths, I just think in some cases fame can be a dangerous thing if you haven’t got someone who cares about you for you, and not for your money. And then some of those deaths are just senseless tragedies, Anton Yelchin and Brittany Murphy in particular.

But yes, I agree, the death rate of black women in maternity settings does need urgent intervention.

Anton Yelchin died in an accident. His car rolled back in his driveway and over him. The model of his car had a high rate of roll away incidents and were recalled.

NippyWoowoo · 29/09/2022 11:56

risefromyourgrave · 29/09/2022 07:48

You could say the same about movie stars. Off the top of my head River Phoenix, Heath Ledger, Corey Haim, Brittany Murphy, Aaliyah, Anton Yelchin, Paul Walker, Tupac, Jonathan Brandis, Chad Boseman. It wasn’t one singular thing that caused any of those deaths, I just think in some cases fame can be a dangerous thing if you haven’t got someone who cares about you for you, and not for your money. And then some of those deaths are just senseless tragedies, Anton Yelchin and Brittany Murphy in particular.

But yes, I agree, the death rate of black women in maternity settings does need urgent intervention.

It wasn’t one singular thing that caused any of those deaths, I just think in some cases fame can be a dangerous thing if you haven’t got someone who cares about you for you, and not for your money.

sorry and Chadwick Boseman died from cancer? Why are he and Yelchin in your list? Why are Yelchin and Murphy comparable? bizzarre post

AisforApplePie · 29/09/2022 11:58

I was going to say why is Chard Boseman on the list, he died of cancer?

Also Brittany Murphy died of pneumonia. Yes she took prescription drugs but it was pneumonia that killed her.

EnigmaMachine · 29/09/2022 11:58

W*hen are we going to address the poor life expectancy for black men?
*
OP did you know when you started this thread that in the UK white people have lower life expectancy than black people?

If you didn't, does this fact surprise you or lead you to ask any questions?

If you did, why did you ask this question?

NippyWoowoo · 29/09/2022 11:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Jesus Christ

EnigmaMachine · 29/09/2022 12:02

I'm talking about worse outcomes for black people

....even if they don't exist

Obvs for childbirth there are worse outcomes for black women and this needs to be addressed, but overall life expectancy is lower for white people.

Interesting that we never hear calls to address this inequality isn't it?

Qwerkie · 29/09/2022 12:03

AisforApplePie · 29/09/2022 11:58

I was going to say why is Chard Boseman on the list, he died of cancer?

Also Brittany Murphy died of pneumonia. Yes she took prescription drugs but it was pneumonia that killed her.

Many of the people on the original sceeenshot also died through illness. Still trying to work out the OPs point

NippyWoowoo · 29/09/2022 12:10

Qwerkie · 29/09/2022 12:03

Many of the people on the original sceeenshot also died through illness. Still trying to work out the OPs point

Oh gosh yes also forgot Aaliyah and Paul Walker! Both accidents? Plane/car crash. Makes no sense, it’s like they just googled ‘celebrities who died’

ChocChipOwl · 29/09/2022 12:14

You're the poster who used the term 'whataboutery' whenever anyone disagrees with you

Your list is ridiculous and not the basis for a discussion. They were all - I think without exception - past addicts

Liila · 29/09/2022 12:39

Surely the question is why do rich, privileged people lead such unhealthy lives. As this thread demonstrates race has nothing to do with it.

Naunet · 29/09/2022 12:42

PatricksRum · 29/09/2022 09:40

And yet again we have a thread full of white people making themselves the victims.

The picture contained just a few examples.

I notice how the whataboutery posters have conveniently missed out the part about black women dying in labour.

If they're all caused by drugs then why are they turning to drugs?

Why are they turning to drugs?! How the fuck are people in the UK meant to know? Go ask Americans.

Out of interest, do you worry this much about politics etc in other countries, or just the states for some reason?

PaperPalace · 29/09/2022 12:51

@lannistunut do you mean section 5 of the article? The bit that shows all causes is in section 4 - see the table.

risefromyourgrave · 29/09/2022 13:09

NippyWoowoo · 29/09/2022 11:56

It wasn’t one singular thing that caused any of those deaths, I just think in some cases fame can be a dangerous thing if you haven’t got someone who cares about you for you, and not for your money.

sorry and Chadwick Boseman died from cancer? Why are he and Yelchin in your list? Why are Yelchin and Murphy comparable? bizzarre post

That’s why I said ‘it wasn’t one singular thing’ and ‘in some cases’, just like the list of the rappers in the OP. That was my whole point, famous people die of various things, no matter the colour of their skin.

risefromyourgrave · 29/09/2022 13:10

Qwerkie · 29/09/2022 12:03

Many of the people on the original sceeenshot also died through illness. Still trying to work out the OPs point

Just saw this, thank you @Qwerkie, that’s what I meant!

risefromyourgrave · 29/09/2022 13:12

NippyWoowoo · 29/09/2022 12:10

Oh gosh yes also forgot Aaliyah and Paul Walker! Both accidents? Plane/car crash. Makes no sense, it’s like they just googled ‘celebrities who died’

I didn’t Google ‘celebrities who died’, I gave a list of young people’s deaths that had struck me as tragic, for whatever reason.