‘Beaten by a girl’. How offensive is this?

[Trainfromredhill]

DS (9) came home in tears from school yesterday having been given the worst punishment the school has (goes on his record)for saying this in a science class to a male classmate after a dexterity experiment in which said classmate was ‘beaten by a girl’. DS still has no idea why he shouldn’t have said it.
I’m a feminist. DH is extremely supportive. If this was said to me I’d feel triumphant. I’m struggling with the harshness of the punishment and that DS obviously hasn’t been given an age appropriate explanation. Thoughts?

Ridiculously excessive punishment IMO for a child of that age. Of course he should have been told kindly, but very firmly why this was offensive, so that he’d be left in no doubt for the future.

Firstly, yes I actually give quite a lot to several charities.

But secondly, ‘making a fuss’? Are you serious?

Someone claimed women and girls have never been bought or sold as slaves. several of us reply that, that information is historically inaccurate. That women and girls have always been sold as slaves and still are….and you think that’s making a fuss.

Pointing out something is factually incorrect and a harmful narrative is ‘making a fuss’?

You are ridiculous

But secondly, ‘making a fuss’? Are you serious?

ITA. I read that a couple of times because I could not work out if Cillery was being mildly sarcastic - extremely bad taste if so.

Sorry if it came over that way. I agree ‘making a fuss’ was a bad choice of words but I did wonder how we got from a nine year old boy making a boyish remark to girls being sold as slaves. The other thing is that young boys are also being sold as slaves in the same countries. Their parents are being enslaved too. Where the World Cup is being played the stadiums have been built by largely slave labour. There are millions of slaves and forced labourers in the world. Slavery has been part of cultures for millennia. I do think that trying to educate kids is better than punishing them for ignorance.

As I have said I didn’t know quite how we got to a remark made by a nine-year-old to slavery. It was perhaps not the best phrase to use but I couldn’t quite believe the turn of the conversation. Do we really understand how children function?

The people who you said were ‘making a fuss’ quoted what they were responding to. If you had bothered to read the whole posts, or even back track 3 or 4 posts, you would have seen why the conversation had become about this subject.

and who said young boys are not trafficked? It seems you are being purposely obtuse.

It’s been explained, explicitly. Some one claimed women and girls have not been bought and sold into slavery. And a few of us corrected them. Why would we add foot notes about boys being bought and sold into slavery, when that’s not what we were correcting?

The apology for bad wording falls very flat when its ‘sorry bad wording but you still didn’t talk about something irrelevant to conversation that I think you should have pointed out’

I wasn’t aware that anytime we mention women and girls, we also have to clear up the situation about boys and men.

If the poster had said boys and men were not bought and sold into slavery, then the correction would be ‘boys and men have always been sold into slavery’.

As for education be punishment m. You have no idea if this is the first or 10th time this child has said something similar. Op doesn’t have a problem with it. She claims to have explained it, but also says he still doesn’t understand what he did wrong. He has been educated, by OP and her DH and the husband and he still doesn’t get it. The education bit hasn’t worked.

It could be the first time he has said something like that. It may not be. At some point, when education isn’t working consequences need to be implemented. Spending energy explaining to someone who doesn’t want to know, is a waste of time and energy.

Because they are told from an early age that they come second to boys. And they are physically weaker. This isn't ok.

But it is simply true. That's why Mumsnet is so against trans participating in female sport. If you believe this then let's abandoned sex based categories in sport. They are weaker and less able to compete with the best which are males. It's why women's sport is like junior sport and disability sport to enable competition they exclude those with a competitive advantage. It's biology basic biology and there is nothing wrong with that. And why male sport get higher viewing figures, because people want to see the best and the strongest. Note women's premier League attendances this weekend and compare to the male equivalent (it gets worse when you consider people are prepared to pay more to attend the male game as the prices are higher). It's also why I'm not a big fan of equal prize money. The women's sport is even subsidised by the male game.

Sorry but you’re obviously quite stuck in this argument and haven’t bothered to read what the OP said in that her kid came back home having been bullied by a teacher for having said something which boys have been saying since the year.and which anyone with any common sense would’ve just corrected. He has no idea why he has been punished - and if he can’t get hold of it what is the point. Have you no idea how the world works and the people who like to use their position to bully? Have you no idea about bullying teachers? Because they have the label ‘feminist’ doesn’t make them any other less bullies? You seem to have tunnel vision and just can see one side of the equation. Thankfully some of us can see things from a kids point of view.

Have you no idea how the world works and the people who like to use their position to bully? Have you no idea about bullying teachers? Because they have the label ‘feminist’ doesn’t make them any other less bullies? You seem to have tunnel vision and just can see one side of the equation.

You don't seem to have read the thread and particularly the context that Andromachehadabadday was referring to.

And if you read mn, you'd know that this different only happens after puberty.

Also the intent of the phrase isn't about physical reality. The intent is a derogatory put down. It's supposed to be demeaning.

Its like you've listen to half the feminist argument, and then ignored the other half because you want to score a 'gotcha' on this thread.

I do think by age 9, it's an appropriate age to say that boys should not be making this type of slur and they should understand why the intent is problematic. And they should receive punishment, if they haven't grasped it by this point. Because its the thing that draws attention to the point.

It's like saying women's sport is inferior to men's.

Women sport is different due to physicality. Yes Women perhaps have to develop skills in a different way.

However the key point here is: It doesn't mean the sport is poorer or less enjoyable because women have less power, speed etc. We are BEGINNING to recognise this. Its different. Not inferior.

We want to encourage level playing fields and understanding. Not abusing someone. Not playing the system.

Saying you play like a girl, is derogatory.

after a dexterity experiment

Doesn't even sound like it was about sport yet posters are so keen to point out how boys will out perform girls. Deep rooted sexism that is prevalent in society. Or do people think boys are simply better at everything?

I was puzzled by this as well. In all the discussions I have seen about men and women and sport on Mn I have never seen one that does not accept the fact universally acknowledged that in terms of sport adult women are generally weaker/slower than adult men . And indeed adult women are often weaker/slower than adolescent males. And transitioned males.

(if it comes to pushing babies out of your body then that is a different matter, can’t wait for labour to be an Olympic sport)

A dexterity test? Knitting? Crochet?

It was a dexterity test and dexterity is something that, rightly or not, females have traditionally been seen as being better than males at.

And indeed adult women are often weaker/slower

Depends in what context you are defining slower.

There is no context that I'm aware of in which the average adult woman is faster than the average adult man. Or where the fastest adult woman is faster that the fastest adult man

Men are faster than women at all distances, in running, cycling, swimming etc.

It is often claimed that women are faster over ultra distance, but the evidence doesn't support it. That claim is based on one flawed study, but men hold almost all (or maybe all?) of the ultra distance records. Women will occasionally win an ultra race outright, but it's usually down to the small size of the field.

Thinking of the 3 most well known ultra mountain running records in the UK - the BGR, the Pennine Way, and the Wainwrights - all are held by men and the male record is usually at least 10% faster than the female record.

I'm interested to know in which context you think an adult man might be slower than the equivalent adult woman though.

Running

Martial arts the smaller person can be faster.

Of course boys will not outperform girls at everything. That’s why it needs to be explained to boys rather than using a sledgehammer of punishment. Of course in most sports apart from equestrian men outperform women because they have a physical advantage. That is why it is quite ridiculous for so-called trans-women to take part in women’s sports because they have men’s bodies. That doesn’t mean that women’s sports are inferior but it doesn’t mean to say that in general men out perform women at sport. That is reality. However other than things women may very well outperform men, given the opportunity. Many of our orchestras are filled with very talented women players, for example. The answer is for women not to compete with men but to work alongside them.

You comprehension is lacking.

You claim correcting facts about slavery is ‘making a fuss’.

Can’t be arsed scrolling back 4 posts or reading the quotes to understand context of the corrections.

Then still moaned that while correcting facts we didn’t side bar that men and boys were also slaves. When no one said they weren’t so no correction needed.

Don’t understand what the word ‘could’ means. As ‘it could be the 10th time he has been told so how can you judge the punishment as harsh’

Don’t seem to understand there’s no evidence of the child being bullied. He made a sexist comment and was given a consequence for it. That’s it.

The child HAS been educated but still doesn’t get it. There’s no get out clause for sexism by claiming ‘I don’t understand’.

and no, I don’t believe the majority of teachers or people are bully’s. Especially when there’s no evidence for it. Of course people use their position of power to bully. That doesn’t mean everyone a child is upset, they have been bullied. We can’t call it either way.

Which is what I said. It could be the first time and it might not be. So you can’t make judgement on the harshness.

What come on, let’s have some more ‘but what about…..’

Sorry that your comprehension is lacking a comprehension of children and their understanding. No wonder the OP gave up with self-righteous people like yourself spouting. You seem far more intent on being right rather than helping the poor lady who is in a dilemma with her kid. There is no get out clause? For a nine-year-old boy who doesn’t understand? Are you kidding or are you so set you don’t understand how kids minds work? You just seem to be stuck in a tunnel of incomprehension. Certainly if I’d been the mother I would’ve been up to the school to see the teacher - not to interfere but just to see what had actually taken place. Not just to take a simplistic view like you take that the child is ‘sexist’ at nine years old. Pathetic reasoning! What if a girl had said ‘fancy being beaten by a boy’? Is that sexist too? For goodness sake give it a rest and try and understand children and their immature minds.

I agree that the punishment seems over-zealous for a nine year old. Of course it's an awful thing to say, but at nine, kids are just copying what they hear and don't have the life experience to always understand what their teasing means. I also think it should have been absolutely spelled out to him why it was offensive.

Having said that @Trainfromredhill your OP is really hard to interpret. I don't get the bit about feeling triumphant if it had been said to you, at all. Because apart from anything else, in that situation the person it was said to didn't win.

If you don't want it on his record, I would send a email groveling, saying that you've pointed out to him exactly what he was implying, and that he's mortified and will never repeat it. Then ask that it's not recorded in a way that will make future teachers see him negatively for immature behaviour that will not be repeated.

The op left hours ago. Apparently.

So who are you supporting?

Look? It’s not my fault you tried to down play the fact that women and girls were slaves.

Its not my fault that you labelled correcting historical fact as ‘making a fuss’.

You are more offended at that correction, then the person who made the error, why is that?

Its not my fault that your apology was a shit non apology where you wanted to spout ‘but what about boys’ all because you couldn’t read the posts and quotes or comprehend them. But hey, it was only apology for a misogynistic comment. Which it is. Calling it making a fuss, when someone points out women and girls have been bought and all as part of slavery, the doing the ‘bit what about boys’ is misogynistic. It’s centering males on a conversation that was about female slaves.

Its not my fault that you have been hurt so bad that you see a consequence of behaviour as automatic bullying and can’t possibly consider any other alternative.

It’s not my fault that your ‘but what about’ arguments don’t make sense and that you can’t post without that.

No one labelled the boy sexist. The comment was sexist. Doesn’t mean he is a misogynist. How have you never heard of ‘label the behaviour not the child’, if you are so child centric?