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Mum still in lockdown !!

269 replies

Kissingfrogs25 · 11/09/2022 18:20

I am getting so worried about my mum. She is in no way vulnerable, in good health and 72 years old, she lives with my dad, for context she smokes, but is a healthy weight no issues.

Mum has been in lockdown since early march 20 and has not been anywhere inside or outside since this date, she says she is too terrified she will die of covid. She has had all vaccines, its the only time she has been inside a building. She cuts her own hair, hasn't been to the dentist, doctor (will speak on phone if needed) in all that time.

She won't even eat a takeaway in case its contaminated

What on earth do I do? I managed to get her to call the dr, who put her on antidepressants and other medication, but this hasn't changed anything.

I have been meeting up with mum outside, but even then she looks nervous. My dad is not allowed to go anywhere either.

It is now getting colder, I didnt see her for eight months last winter because it was too cold to sit out. She won't even see her friends, the few she has left have to sit on a bench in the park.

Anyone else in this position? What can I do? The years are going by and I feel like I have lost my mum 😥

OP posts:
Kissingfrogs25 · 13/09/2022 07:51

arewe Thank you for your post - they have been very powerful to read. Falling asleep IS the perfect way to die, and it is whta most people would choose if they could. A gentle and calm departure is all we can ask for. I am sorry she is no longer with you, and I can't imagine the difficulty of that last day. You sound incredibly balanced and there is a level of acceptance in your posts that reaches all of us.

The problem is we are all going to die but for some people that sense of mortality is maybe overwhelming as we get older, but if we just sit inside day after day to me that feels like a living death.
There is no joy, no fun, no laughter or visitors or loved ones. Every day is the same as the one before. A prison sentence with no end in sight. I would say that inmates are better off, they have lots of company - chats - games and visitors and a finish line.

Technically mum is physically alive, yes but at what cost? Covid is here forever. It is not like it is going to disappear next week or next year or in a decades time. I have asked her gently, given it is now endemic and here to stay, will she never leave? And I honestly think she is has resolved to stay precisely where she is.

I can't hug her, I can't go near her, I can't see her very often as it is too cold/wet or she can't even come outside. In some ways she feels almost gone in all but name. I feel like I am grieving for her. The pain I feel when I think about what I am losing/lost is so great. But her loss is even greater, because her life has gone.

My dad has done nothing to address this, I am sorry to say I think it suits him perfectly. He can watch TV all day, he doesn't have to go out or entertain visitors. I suspect it suits him. So he has done nothing to help her. And that too makes me (quietly) angry.

Yesterday I have managed to convince her to come in my car for a drive if I test before repeatedly. As I have just had covid, so I am safer than usual in her mind, as I have a period of time where it would be difficult to catch it again. I don't know where to take her - any suggestions?

OP posts:
thaegumathteth · 13/09/2022 14:49

jg76 · 12/09/2022 13:22

[name changed] I was like this too, though I'm not their age. Managed to end it about the end of 2021. I will say, though, that I've had covid twice since "breaking isolation" and I can't exercise anymore due to getting badly out of breath, and I wasn't like that before, so it's difficult to say if it was the right decision.

But surely it was the right decision because what's the alternative??

verdantverdure · 13/09/2022 15:08

Does anybody know how many people have covid on their death certificate this year, and how many people have got long covid this year?

Are these people everyone is sort of insinuating are being irrational for trying to avoid catching covid in similar demographics to those dying and attending long covid clinics and therefore at higher risk?

I have a friend who was classed as CEV and who is still doing her best not to catch covid, and I speak to her every day and see her all the time.

I have made adjustments to my expectations to keep her safe. That's what you do when you care about someone. Rather than treat them as if they are being irrational.

Wouldloveanother · 13/09/2022 15:08

verdantverdure · 13/09/2022 15:08

Does anybody know how many people have covid on their death certificate this year, and how many people have got long covid this year?

Are these people everyone is sort of insinuating are being irrational for trying to avoid catching covid in similar demographics to those dying and attending long covid clinics and therefore at higher risk?

I have a friend who was classed as CEV and who is still doing her best not to catch covid, and I speak to her every day and see her all the time.

I have made adjustments to my expectations to keep her safe. That's what you do when you care about someone. Rather than treat them as if they are being irrational.

But they’re not CEV. So they are being irrational.

Yummymummy2020 · 13/09/2022 15:22

Hmm. I am still being careful as I have a few health issues and also am around vulnerable people so I do make a lot of effort still. However, despite this, I still get a busy train to work but take precautions like my mask. I don’t care really what others do or don’t do and I feel quite content on the train and not fearful. I think it is an issue though if someone is petrified and not able to do day to day things because of this fear. There is definitely extremes happening beyond what is necessary to keep safe which is sad because people are missing out on time with loved ones.

PlayDohDots · 13/09/2022 15:24

I am shocked to see how many other people's parents are like this! Mine haven't set foot in a restaurant or hotel since March 2020 and come up with elaborate excuses not to join us on family holidays or even a simple day out. Public transport, trains or airplanes are absolutely out of the question. They will only go out to shops or doctor appointments. They wear masks everywhere indoors, even going through an empty parking garage into the lift. My mum is worse and only seems to feel safe in her house and garden. She's happy to take care of DD but only at home, and has never joined us on a day out even to outdoor places like the zoo. She was once convinced she caught covid because a group of pre-schoolers crossed the road in front of her and one of them coughed. I know exactly what you mean by the phrase they are still alive but at what cost? I have almost no memories with my parents for the past 3 years outside their "safe space". There are no photos of us on trips, holidays, restaurants etc. It's obviously a mental health issue but at their age, many are extremely resistant to the idea of seeking help. Especially as covid is still a cyclical threat, why do they need therapy or medication to convince them otherwise?

Our story took an abrupt end as my daughter infected all of us recently. Both of them were ill for a week but it was far from the life-threatening experience they expected. Now the worse has passed, they're actually quite buoyant at the idea that they no longer need to isolate. And they'll probably need a gradual rehabilitation phase into society but I can't imagine anything standing in the way.

Quartz2208 · 13/09/2022 16:02

verdantverdure · 13/09/2022 15:08

Does anybody know how many people have covid on their death certificate this year, and how many people have got long covid this year?

Are these people everyone is sort of insinuating are being irrational for trying to avoid catching covid in similar demographics to those dying and attending long covid clinics and therefore at higher risk?

I have a friend who was classed as CEV and who is still doing her best not to catch covid, and I speak to her every day and see her all the time.

I have made adjustments to my expectations to keep her safe. That's what you do when you care about someone. Rather than treat them as if they are being irrational.

Covid of course is a risk and I dont think anyone has downplayed the fact that it can cause death and long covid.

But refusing to leave your house being a healthy 72 year old is irrational and is showing signs of agoraphoia and anxiety

thing47 · 13/09/2022 16:05

Covid does kill, getting it means you are taking a chance but no more so than plenty of others things we do in life and it is getting the balance and perspective right whilst acknowledging the risk.

This is right @Quartz2208 . DD2, who has a first-class Masters in control of infectious diseases, so is essentially a cross between a virologist and an epidemiologist, puts it this way: It isn't impossible to get Covid outside but unless someone coughs repeatedly into your face, the chances are roughly on a par with being struck by lightning. Obviously people DO get struck by lightning, but nobody decides they are not going out of the house on any given day on the basis that they might get struck by lightning…

Quartz2208 · 13/09/2022 16:58

Exactly @thing47 and I looked it up recently and was very surprised in that there are 3million lightning strikes everyday!

NeckFanInSoftPlay · 15/09/2022 17:33

Wanttobeanastronaut · 12/09/2022 12:15

@thaegumathteth my friend doesn't recognise it as anxiety at all, but a very reasonable reaction to the danger that is Covid. She's not into conspiracy theories and doesn't spend ages watching the news, so I'm not entirely sure how it's come to this. She is very introvert and I wonder if it's become a good excuse to avoid going outside. At one point I was doing her shopping but she is doing that at least now. The supermarket is walking distance to her home.

The kids are still going to school so I'm not sure the school would be interested. And I'm not reporting her to social services as suggested elsewhere, that's ridiculous and wouldn't help them at all.

I agree with other posters that operation fear has meant some people can't readjust to life again.

How is it ridiculous!? Those children are being kept inside and emotionally neglected. This could destroy them for the rest of their lives. Hmm Going to school is not enough social interaction nor outdoor exercise for any growing child, ffs

verdantverdure · 15/09/2022 19:24

Hi, just to add that over 70s get their covid jabs earlier than most of us, and are sometimes given extra boosters aren't they? That the rest of us don't get?

So it's not in the least bit irrational for someone in their 70s to feel at risk from covid.

Paragon59 · 05/10/2022 18:08

Unfortunately I am in this same situation myself as your mum, forced into de facto indefinite lockdown due to society's failure to do anything to enable me to leave lockdown, instead most people now behaving as if normal life is back but simply, which is by definition not normal by 2019 society, continuing to constantly circulate and perpetuate at their lowest still high rates of Covid (at the high end of what was usual pre-Omicron) to very very high rates and therefore increasing the risks from catching the virus. I suspect many people will think there are little or no risks here, with many people seemingly not thinking these risks exist or they have not been informed about them. As the World Health Organisation pointed out on Twitter in July, there is a disconnect in the perception of Covid risks between scientists and politicians/the general public.

Therefore, mine is a very reasonable and, above all, rational response to the actual and true risks that Covid poses, whereas most people here, that think they are the ones that are being rational, appear to be behaving in an irrational way, perhaps because living in a pandemic such as this has been so hard for them that they needed to spring from their lockdowns for their own emotional reasons (and therefore irrational) and with some cognitive dissonance apparently present, at least in some, through their recognising that Covid is here on the one hand and yet, on the other, many people behaving as if it isn't and as if it is back to normal.

It won't be the news that has convinced me, instead the news has been full of misinformation, repeatedly involving numerous part-truthful and some going on false narratives, including rhetoric and unsubstantiated assertions that, it seems, have been very successful in convincing most people that there is little, or even no, risk from infections. Far from Operation Fear, it has been Operation Downplay from much of the media, including the ordering and presentation of information, the use of emotive language and the framing of the matter, always looking back at the worst possible times of the pandemic earlier in order to say 'look, not as bad now' when in fact it has still been worse than some earlier time in the pandemic. As long as it isn't as bad as the worst possible times before, we can continue to make things worse up to that point once again and then make them worse than that and, now, it doesn't look too bad since it's only a bit worse than it was before and simply getting us to cause more and more death and long-term disability and do so on some incrementalist basis, designed it seems to get us to accept more and more death in the vaccinated era from now on in.

As regards people wanting to know whether there were more people dying, the answer is yes. There have been more direct Covid deaths in July and August this year than there were in the same period in 2021 and, especially, more than there were in those months in 2020, given that we had been in extended lockdown and actually cared about the virus and looking after others back then rather than causing more deaths from much higher levels of infection seen throughout this year - including the highest level of infection, nearly 5 million estimated infected, therefore at the height of the pandemic so far at the end of March 2022, the highest levels seen on the ONS infection survey since it started in April 2020. This time in 2022 being around the same time as the unsubstantiated pseudoscience "post-pandemic" claims started being repeatedly made that continue to date, whilst we have had a series of repeated waves of the virus all year and are now starting yet another wave, with infections and hospitalisations rising yet again.

As to people in their 30s still being in lockdown, they are in fact being rational according to the actual risks. There is more risk of long Covid for people of working age (and more women than men) from around age 30 upwards. The later versions of Omicron from around this spring onwards now cause repeated infection, something that was much less common earlier in this pandemic. There is a significant risk to everyone of long Covid and it also arises from infections that appear to be mild or people experience as being mild although this only relates to symptoms and not to what Covid might be doing to the body without ever presenting as symptoms or increased risks of numerous serious conditions that arise after Covid infection. People don't understand what long Covid is or how it can put people out of action for months on end and not therefore be mild, instead serious cases without ever being hospitalised that do not feature in serious cases that present at ICU which are now rarer in Omicron with the vaccines (although where a large elderly population was unvaccinated and hospitals collapsing visibly in Hong Kong earlier in the year, our media didn't seem to mention that this was all the same variant Omicron causing this - it wasn't "milder Omicron" there).

For myself, still relatively young age and not as far as I know clinically vulnerable, I was never at much risk of serious Covid-19 illness or death in the first place. My concern was much more about possible long-term outcomes from infection and, unfortunately, the vaccines do not deal with these nearly well enough, especially given that we have enabled variants to arise against which the vaccines are less effective against everything by continuing large amounts of infection that enable greater evolution of the Covid-19 virus that then gives it an edge against our vaccines and so the whole attempts to 'live with Covid', whilst showing no evidence of any learning to do so in behaving as if Covid doesn't exist, now appear to be self-defeating, as well as several subvariants among multiple subvariants of Omicron any of which are involved this time now evading at least one of the anti-virals - and it seems the one that is gaining more ground (BQ1.1) is one that defeats two anti-virals, so basically is one of the worst ones.

People generally are shown by research to underestimate their risk in a pandemic such as this, and unfortunately many young people around my age, who failed to take up their vaccine because they believed themselves not to be at much risk, then ended up in intensive care and died during Delta (which was more severe) last year. So it is, and was, always right to get every vaccine offered (unless there is some medical reason why not to do so). However, with many people now many months after their boosters (if they had them), the vaccines now providing very little protection against infection, the greater amount of Covid now present in society throughout this year - much higher than times in 2020 or much of 2021 away from the waves of the virus none of which we did anything to prevent - and the increased transmissibility of Omicron compared to the viruses we had back then, the risks have increased on all these areas and, therefore, acting in accordance with the actual risks and not underestimating my risk like most people do, it is just easier for me to stay here in lockdown rather than take unnecessary risks as all going out into society now has unacceptable increased risk due to other people simply continuing to go around as if normal and keeping the virus at high levels that themselves increase the risk of encountering someone infectious with it that then increases the risk of being infected by it and the unacceptable risks that that gives rise to.

The vaccines are not the best defence against the virus, instead not catching the virus at all provides the best defence as, when I fail to catch the virus (which appears to be perfectly possible to achieve as I have demonstrated) I have zero risk from it of any illness, any consequences from this in increased risk of serious medical conditions, hospitalisation or death whilst the vaccines do not provide the same level of protection once caught and are the last defence if the virus slips though. At one time, with Delta, my booster jab would have provided very little remaining risk of hospitalisation or death and may have enabled me to leave lockdown (although still being cautious even then). Unfortunately Omicron arrived the week before I got jabbed and Omicron immediately increased this minimal risk multiple times over and therefore put stop to the whole thing.

I have been unable to leave lockdown as these increased risks have persisted, and have only been increased more by vaccine waning, but above all by the huge amount of Omicron people generally have persisted in society, much higher than many times before prior to Omicron, with Omicron much much more transmissible than the original virus on top (that I may now wonder how anyone ever caught) and the thing most stopping me leaving is the failure of everyone else in society to get the infection levels right down and reduce the risk substantially. Instead, the lack of measures being taken by other people simply impose onto me, and continue to impose onto me, the requirement for me to take even more measures in order to protect myself from the virus given that they have increased the risk on multiple counts and perpetuated it.

Therefore my approach was part of the individual risk assessment that the public health guidance (that no-one bothers with) that we are all asked to do, given that the responsibility for fighting an entire pandemic has now been imposed onto individuals. Having found the risks to be increased on numerous levels I was therefore retaining caution, especially as some clinically vulnerable people shielded for two years, only to throw it all away after then, catch the virus and then ended up dead, and I did so for two reasons (ah, me being rational yet again! - I suspect too rational), firstly I wasn't going to make the mistake of underestimating my risk and secondly the risk was increased on multiple counts - much more virus around, increased chance of catching it that poses significant risks (which exist despite what the official propaganda in the media narrative has clearly managed to convince people is little risk if you catch it), then greater transmissibility of Omicron, all rationally requiring more measures against it not less, then more measures required by me against other people's failure to have them and their own lack of personal responsibility that they are showing by not wearing masks in all indoor places outside of their home and by behaving as if it is normal life back, and, even if not advised by our own hopeless public health that, away from their being correct advising people to get vaccinated, have been repeatedly wrong throughout the pandemic, masks should be worn outside now, particularly in crowded settings, as there are a number of cases of outside transmission at concerts and the like in Omicron.

So all of this imposes more measures on me as everyone else has simply increased risk on numerous counts, and then my booster vaccine very likely substantiated waned by now, being many months after it, so more risk there. For me, it is just easier to stay at home given the fact that leaving my home and having to protect myself from numerous other people that are now failing to do anything to protect me involves going through substantial and time-consuming procedures to ensure my mask is tight-fitted etc. and is not just a simple matter of being able to leave quickly that people generally take for granted but has to be done to perfection given the greater risks created by everyone else, that they are doing nothing to remove, and given that I am on the autism spectrum and therefore doing this to leave on a regular basis, for numerous unnecessary and non-essential things anyway, is just too much - as the only essential things for me are deliveries of food and essential medical appointments that unfortunately can't be avoided. Everything else is unnecessary for me to do and just extra and unnecessary therefore risk in doing so, so is just easier to stay at home given that it would be too exhausting going through these procedures on a much more frequent basis.

So risks, reduced by the vaccines, then increased on numerous levels and calculation done by myself that then means de facto lockdown imposed by continued Covid restrictions imposed from the existence of Covid at such continued high levels that we have constantly had throughout the whole of the last year and no end in sight given that people generally are doing nothing about them, whilst they persist all the extra harm and damage from them that they are causing including the NHS being now face down into the floor and not even on its knees anymore. Extra harm and damage swept under the carpet by the media and pretended does not exist or pinpointed onto other things and avoid mentioning Covid and what it is causing behind it.

Having not underestimated the risk, and I do make changes that reflect the level of risk (for example, I am not so concerned if the wind is blowing in the opposite direction to me from some delivery driver I am in effect forced to meet, although I don't put it past way transmissible Omicron to be thrust out in a massive large invisible cloud before the wind takes it the other way), my booster vaccine then very likely waned and now giving very very little protection against Omicron with its abilities now to repeatedly infect and act in a stealth manner against immunity, although unfortunately my risk now increased due to having likely no previous infection that would have been unacceptable risk from having anyway and might give long-term damage that isn't yet being seen. And then on top of all this increased risk, increased by others not wearing masks etc., I saw a report last week that now reveals that I am at 50% more risk of long Covid than I thought I was, due to my having a long-term health condition that isn't my autism. So, I seems I was right not to underestimate (I have this nasty happy of being right, sometimes by accident) and I am actually at even more risk.

Mine is a rational assessment in relation to the actual risk therefore and at this point I may mention the fact that people such as myself are likely better predictors of actual risk and odds, being less likely to be influenced by the way in which they are presented www.newscientist.com/article/dn14946-never-gamble-with-an-autistic-opponent/ and less likely to have unhelpful emotional bias, irrationality therefore, having some emotional need to pursue the horrid normality (that most people seem to have needed on some emotional basis for themselves given how hard being in lockdown was for most people and in fact harder for many autistic people as well it seems also hard for both autistic and non-autistic) that I never wanted back in the first place but sought something better instead, such as normal minus all its bad aspects brought back, like horrible traffic fumes back in the town centre and cars clogging up the car parks and making it more difficult to get around and sexual harassment given that children in research by Ofsted said that sexual harassment was so normal that they don't bother to complain about it. So, when people wanted normal back, it was a superficial wish and they clearly didn't think about what they were saying (as usual).

In addition, people like myself are shown to tend to remain objective and rational, regardless of how information is presented or described and are autism-advantage.com/not-framed-by-the-framing-effect.html
There have been numerous examples over the way in which information has been presented including in unevidenced narratives in journalism and to support or fail to challenge unsubstantiated claims made by politicians and officials and instead to include the official narratives within and underlying the message of the journalists and the way it railroads people into accepting increasing amounts of death and disability and misleads on numerous matters through its truth-telling technical omission and with myself not being influenced by emotive language that doesn't work on me in the same way as it does with most people, instead being frustrated by the attempt to influence me and/or the misleading, unsubstantiated or untrue statements and political rhetoric that I have had parroted to me word for word by my doctors' receptionist.

Whilst it is not advertising material, it may work in a similar way and work with other people, especially in convincing them to do what they want to do anyway but against their own better interests unknown to themselves, but be a case of www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-fallible-mind/201708/why-advertising-falls-flat-in-individuals-autism with myself, and not influenced by the decoy items such as presenting or having caused waves of huge infection in order to make further waves then seem not that much harm, but instead myself remaining rational and not being "tricked into making pretty irrational decisions" as it seems many people on this thread have been. Unfortunately, everything I have has evidence behind it rather than having been emotively persuaded on some irrational and dysfunctional basis and in denial of the actual risks that Covid still poses that make my response a perfectly rational one.

As well as mask-wearing being politicised, matters when they come to Covid are political on numerous aspects with official bodies behaving in a way that appears to provide cover for those in power and to be designed to protect short-term economic interests, that haven't actually been protected, as well as in denial of the body of scientific evidence, that have enabled politicians to remove what have been emotively framed as "restrictions", as few people like to be "restricted", and easily convinced most people to get back to - it turned out disappointingly to be - their own normal, not mine, that they so wished to do in the first place and to behave in what I am now seeing as this groupthink pseudonormality behaviour on a mass and widespread scale, as going around, as if a daze in behaviour in denial of Covid existing and in what looks to me like headless chicken behaviour of tens of millions of people simply catching and re-catching Covid and potentially posing more risks to themselves with each reinfection of which the media do not appear to be fully informing them, instead to be in denial as to the continued existence of the pandemic itself, as shown by the numerous waves and not in a stable state and in any event being stable at a high level of infection that poses much more risk is a bad thing.

I do not want such unacceptably stable levels of endemic, which we do not have anyway and the way people are going will never have anything other than a never-ended pandemic in fact - instead of unacceptable stable at continued high levels of virus that increase the risk, I want reducing and reducing levels in order to make the risk less for everyone and then perhaps endemic at an acceptable stable low level of virus rather than what people generally seem to wish for - this high level of infection and then constant perpetuated stability and no end made possible to de facto lockdown due to other people's mass failure to take measures short of lockdown that might get infections down and enable me at some point to leave my lockdown.

verdantverdure · 05/10/2022 18:27

There's another wave rising as we speak isn't there? In this "post pandemic" part of the pandemic.

I understand completely why people who are at higher risk from covid can't just go back to a 2019 normal.

What I don't understand is the people who supposedly love them, who want them to put themselves in harm's way.

Quartz2208 · 05/10/2022 18:52

@Paragon59 so what is your solution then - what measures would make you able to leave lockdown.

Because nothing about your response seems a rational and objective response

Pootle40 · 05/10/2022 19:43

Sorry @Paragon59 I don't think yours is a rational response.

NoEffingWay · 05/10/2022 20:19

@Paragon59 wow, that was a bit intense!

I want to live my life, not spend it in fear and isolation.

You can continue living how you wish, but bear in mind most of the population has moved on mentally from being in constant fear and anxiety and we have to respect those decisions.

Covid has joined the long list of viruses which arise, and eventually become normalised. I remember the fear of HIV, AIDS, SARS, MERS, and other similar infections such as MRSA, the bubonic plague and the flu.

The illness that has felled me the most is the common cold which like most, I get one or two a year like most people.

Get vaccinated (just had my forth), and try and stay at your healthiest. It's all we can do. Also, wash your hands you filthy animals Grin

Paragon59 · 05/10/2022 22:00

Apologies; I am now fighting two contradictory things and being left not knowing what to do or say, a common occurrence on the autism spectrum. On the one hand, I don't want to be passive aggressive by failing to reply (which was my first thought, say nothing). On the other, unfortunately I am being driven away from this website and don't want to be here at present. I can't explain, unfortunately I feel unwelcome and excluded and the exclusion so effective prevents me coming back - I shan't bother arriving here to try to explain to people why I am doing something in future as it is clear I will only be subject to unacceptable behaviour in response.

Paragon59 · 05/10/2022 22:36

Quartz2208 · 05/10/2022 18:52

@Paragon59 so what is your solution then - what measures would make you able to leave lockdown.

Because nothing about your response seems a rational and objective response

I thought it prevented me coming back here but, after some minutes, I have found myself coming back because I don't want to be unhelpful by leaving you with no reply to your question. My further apologies; I am used to another website in which responses automatically appear with the original post they were replying to, I didn't realise this didn't happen here and have now worked out that I need to quote this post, which my previous reply was intended to be in response to.
The measures would be any measures that got the virus levels in the country right down and I am afraid would need to be right down as in maximum 1,000 infections across the entire country rather than about that many or more just in my own city and even then the virus would not have to simply spread and create many more infections which sadly I don't think is the case with this virus. The entire approach adopted by this country has been wrong and still is wrong. Unfortunately we've never done anything in society to ever get infections down to this level and then use vaccines to get rid of the virus and our vaccines now significantly behind due to the approach followed instead.
It would be widespread wearing of effective (high-grade) masks (unfortunately the whole issue of mask-wearing has been politicised) and ventilation in public buildings (unfortunately our government is ideologically opposed to any such thing) - therefore not something that any one individual could do.
As to my response not seeming to be rational or objective, I am at a complete loss over this part of your reply and do not understand it at all - it seems completely rational and objective to me, being rational by considering the actual levels of risk and all the evidence and objective in doing so. I think it may be most people have moved so far away from this that they now believe themselves to be rational and objective but have gone completely into not being, whilst perceiving anything that is rational and objective as being irrational and non-objective. I just don't understand as we are in two different worlds it seems, mine the real world.
What I posted was from following of scientists independent from official bodies that may have vested interests or an agenda and through their constant correction of numerous aspects after I'd seen them on the media. Most people it seems will have seen the media and after numerous matters, misleading on all of them, have ended up in a totally different position and now believing something that is so widely different from the facts and reality. In response I have got a question from you, which I have now tried to answer, and a comment that nothing about my response seemed rational and objective but providing me with no explanation as to why. I am therefore at a loss to understand what that part of the reply means, because all of what I said seemed perfectly rational and objective to me and you've not explained why it seems neither of those things to you.
Thank you for your help.

MarieInternette · 05/10/2022 22:39

It’s interesting that Dane Deborah James who sadly died of bowel cancer earlier this year, stated that she had suffered from terrible anxiety before her diagnosis with terminal cancer.
It took such an awful situation to make her realise that actually, life is for living and living in fear of what may (but probably won’t) happen, is no way to live, especially when the end is looming. I guess when the worst has happened to you you have no fear.

I do wonder what will happen to these self imposed prisoners if anything serious does actually happen. How on earth will they cope?

Paragon59 · 05/10/2022 22:47

I'm not saying everyone should be in lockdown just that mass scale almost everyone else now taking no measures in the vast majority of places and behaving as if it is normal then creating an even worse situation regarding the amount of Covid in society that then keeps me in lockdown, given the difficulty that myself having to equip myself in even more PPE in order to protect myself from the dangerousness that other people have created for me in the outside world given their own lack of measures that makes this necessary. This also given the fact I follow an infection prevention approach rather than this country's hopeless mitigation approach, where most people aren't even mitigating anything or much, an infection mitigation approach wrongly claimed to be an infection prevention and control approach in which hundreds of thousands and then back to millions of infections are, once again, neither prevented nor controlled.
This is the problem with being personally responsible and myself being almost the only person that actually is, apart from clinically vulnerable people that are forced to be in order to try to protect themselves, whilst the rest of society and numerous societies in the world thwart the anti-virals by spreading Covid at high levels and enabling the virus to evolve into numerous subvariants some of which now have such escape against them.

Paragon59 · 05/10/2022 22:56

I am not anxious and characterising me as such is wrong. I would be anxious if I were to be circulating in society given the huge risk of Covid. Staying in lockdown makes me not anxious. Unfortunately I am unable to say anything about people who haven't remained in lockdown as that would be as unacceptable as saying similar about people such as myself that have done so - I am not going to assume how people might feel or how they might cope when they were in lockdown as it will differ for different people.

Quartz2208 · 05/10/2022 23:01

Paragon59 · 05/10/2022 22:56

I am not anxious and characterising me as such is wrong. I would be anxious if I were to be circulating in society given the huge risk of Covid. Staying in lockdown makes me not anxious. Unfortunately I am unable to say anything about people who haven't remained in lockdown as that would be as unacceptable as saying similar about people such as myself that have done so - I am not going to assume how people might feel or how they might cope when they were in lockdown as it will differ for different people.

When you say you are in lockdown do you mean you don’t go out, socialise etc.

Covid simply isn’t going away - China is showing that. People were always going to assimilate it as simply another risk factor in life because otherwise there would be no living

Covid is nasty and incredibly contagious it has gone through our household making for a miserable September but we move on and go forward.

Paragon59 · 05/10/2022 23:25

I may be assuming - if mine now seems an extreme response, especially given how far removed from it most people have gone - it is because it is a continued extreme situation. It is therefore proportionate to the situation I am faced with especially now my being at even more risk than what I thought only a few weeks ago so was right to remain even more cautious in case I was at more risk than I thought (and it now turns out from scientific research that in fact I am), and the situation has been made continued extreme by others not taking any measures of their own but just going around in this what seems rather senseless behaviour to me of catching the virus.
It is also clear that the vast majority of people are no longer following the continued public health advice that never told them to stop wearing masks and indeed advises people to do so in certain situations. The public health advice is about removing legal restrictions (which was a political choice not science) whilst encouraging safer behaviours and the safer behaviours include wearing masks in indoor spaces and in crowded spaces outdoors. It is clear the vast majority of people are not doing so and therefore are creating more risks even though I have no direct experience of it since I am not circulating in society and therefore have not personally witnessed whether people are wearing masks or not, but what I see through television news of constant scenes that appear deceptively normal, in which everyone or nearly everyone isn't wearing any masks and no-one else ever really socially distanced in the first place (other than in controlled queues and inside supermarkets, both overseen by official enforcement being physically present), and what is anecdotally reported through social media of people being, yet again, the only ones to be wearing masks.

Paragon59 · 06/10/2022 00:22

Quartz2208 · 05/10/2022 23:01

When you say you are in lockdown do you mean you don’t go out, socialise etc.

Covid simply isn’t going away - China is showing that. People were always going to assimilate it as simply another risk factor in life because otherwise there would be no living

Covid is nasty and incredibly contagious it has gone through our household making for a miserable September but we move on and go forward.

Yes, I remain in lockdown full March 2020 style (that I never left in the first place after going into two weeks before the official start as the level of cases in my area (and multiplying them perhaps sevenfold to account for little testing back then at the start) was simply getting more and more dangerous every week and, finally, two weeks before, my comfort level was exceeded). I managed one visit to the barbers' shop in early July 2020, given that I am not in Leicester, although did very early before more people coming out increased the risk again and otherwise remained in lockdown throughout summer 2020 and never left it, because of some pedantic objection I had to the lack of any effective test and trace system making it unsafe to do so. Therefore, myself following the science at every stage and doing what everyone ought to have done but of course almost no-one else as usual did, since almost no-one behaves as they 'should'.

In fact - I thought about this about two weeks ago - I am in even more strict lockdown than the official March 2020 time, as I no longer visit the pharmacy to pick up prescriptions given that the risk of this is now greatly increased with much more transmissible Omicron (this was an Omicron thing that made me cease going to the pharmacy when it arrived near the end of 2021) and its ability to linger indoors in unventilated environments for much much longer and now with almost no-one else wearing masks I suspect is even more risk. So, in 2020 I was actually able to visit the pharmacy, which I no longer do now. I don't need to socialise in the first place and the easing in March 2021, in which people were allowed out for a coffee with one other person on a park bench, literally offered nothing of any use whatsoever to myself but instead, to me, was seemed designed to serve the interests of non-autistic people as I saw coffees over park benches as wholly unnecessary when people should simply consume a coffee on their own in their own homes, obviously most people have some social need or rather desire for this that I don't have and such socialising to me is unnecessary and I don't need it either as it literally gives me nothing of use in a pandemic and just creates the risk of transmission of the virus that can be perfectly avoided by not doing it in the first place.

I only go out to put the bins out, and even then I wear a mask in case the virus is spread like invisible smoke from next door leaving their door open or someone outside suddenly comes back and happens to walk past me too close (which has proven to have happened on a couple of occasions and shown I was right to have worn the mask), unless it is the dead of night and I've checked to see the door is closed as well as being careful to see no-one is on the street outside. Otherwise, I leave to put washing out (again with mask in case the wind blows the virus over my way), to meet delivery drivers outside that I would rather just dumped all their goods and then left to be honest although I'm not allowed to do that, and to go to the monthly medical appointment at the hospital centre at which the NHS' less effective measures put us all at risk, including police support officers a couple of months ago entering the building without masks - people could rely on police to keep them safe before but this is no longer the case as that increases the risk by having virus floating in the air inside the centre that would be there if people wore masks and more effective ones.

I no longer visit our surgery that failed my own measures (that are now more robust than then) on ten separate counts last year - one person at reception with a mask round their chin, a cleaner in a room in a small corridor also using a mask as an ornament rather than wearing it as it was around their neck, the chairs too close, everyone else wearing less effective surgical masks that do not address the fact the virus transmits through the air, then I was kept there, for a very precise-timed appointment for over fifteen minutes, at which point 15 minutes at 2 metres and actually made me go and stand outside as there was no way I was remaining there in such an unsafe indoor environment in which it also seemed there wasn't any ventilation, the list goes on and on...

On another occasion, I found an unlocked but closed window with a sign over it claiming "Ventilation is important", that I immediately noticed as very first thing that stood out when I entered the waiting area, immediately opened and moaned about how extra unnecessary risk had been created that should never have been there (not the staff's fault - I suspect some member of the public had closed the window, probably thinking it was too draughty - which is the whole point about ventilation is that there should be a draught and the staff rushed off their feet and unable to go round after the public).

The NHS is the very worst place in my experience, although to be fair it's the only place I now go and has given out six separate pieces of misinformation over time, including a time when it failed to update the symptoms of Covid for months and months when already known to scientists that they differed from what it wrongly therefore claimed the symptoms to be. People should listen to the NHS and take its advice, except when it comes to Covid where it is about politics and there is this Covid exception in our society in which we do everything against every other disease but it is Covid it is political, is about having lifted restrictions so people do nothing and it seems intended to put everyone at risk (no idea why the receptionist at A&E, that unfortunately I had to visit on one occasion, was pulling down her mask each time she spoke to me on booking in - good job I was wearing my more effective mask, intended to protect myself as well as others, as I clearly need it when people that work for our health service of all places do this and seem intent on infecting me).

Yes, people have made it inevitable given that they never followed China's current approach worldwide and helped create new more transmissible variants instead - it is the whole failure of our own approach and that now also of other countries that also now have similar media messaging, and the BBC here, I have never heard it question or challenge "living with Covid" at any stage, whilst I heard it hostile from the start over "zero Covid" which was never properly explained to people as to what it meant (for example, it is an elimination strategy not an eradication strategy and is therefore not literally zero), instead this defeatist attitude that it could never be achieved, when New Zealand and now China show it is perfectly possible, and of course they point out economic damage in China whilst failing to pinpoint the cause of our slower recovery than the economists previously thought (wonder why that could be? Could it be Covid-19's slow-burn damage to the economy in trying to live with Covid, including numerous people off sick with Covid across the economy when infections are very high yet again and then repeated infections all year, including 1.8 million people with long Covid, some of whom now long-term disabled and unable to work, with higher levels of economic inactivity, perhaps 2 to 3 million clinically vulnerable people and some people like me in lockdown no longer contributing to parts of the economy we used to use) and of course they mention a lockdown of several million people for three weeks in China whilst failing to mention that in its population of 1.4 billion people, this is less than 1% of the population whilst 99% of people there were not in lockdown but in normal life instead with zero Covid known in their areas.

The reason I suspect China has "zero Covid" approach, which would make it so much safer here and enable me to be out of lockdown for extended periods of normal life, is because if China had let it spread in its billions of population, whatever health service it has couldn't cope, so I suspect China has no other choice.

As to moving forward here, it appears to be moving forward to repeated infection and repeated infection which may itself prove to be the unsustainable thing that I am actually hoping it eventually will be as this is the only way our approach will ever change, when people are forced to admit it has failed, after the anti-viral drugs on which they sought to rely have all been rendered useless by new subvariants that the approach has furthered and still no end in sight (contrary to what the WHO recently said that appears to have been caught in being politicised itself now) and I am waiting for the unsustainability to become so noticeable that it has to be stopped as I think it eventually will and I am usually right and at the moment things are continuing to go in the way that I have foreseen them as going to go, so all going to plan for it all to fall off the wheels.

I am determined that Covid will never reach my household as I have no intention of taking part in any of this repeated infection business and potentially left off worse from it each time, until people finally admit this virus isn't like flu and that it probably never will be as it is a SARS virus and not the non-SARS viruses that cause the common cold so I think there is likely something inherent in this virus that means it will never be the flu or common cold - scientists often make assumptions based on their own pre-existing experience (sometimes, it seems, with confirmation bias towards their own need for emotional reassurance on some basis or other, that I have no need to have as I look for the facts and the truth regardless of whether it reassures other people or not), the thing this virus tells us is that it repeatedly does not act like any previous virus in numerous ways and scientists therefore, different ones, on five separate occasions to date, saying that different things were "unexpected" and came as a "surprise" to them, things that I expected could be the case and came as no surprise at all to me as I had foreseen the possibility that they could happen and then proved, yet again, indeed the case.

Paragon59 · 06/10/2022 00:24

Oops, I wrote quite a lot (apologies, due to my autism detailed approach) but be assured it has all been fully considered and therefore is rational decision-making by myself.

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