Ukraine Invasion: Part 30

[MagicFox]

We're now on our 30th thread, thanks as usual to all who contribute.

I do actually feel a bit sorry for the Russian people. I doubt they want their sons and husbands to be sent to the slaughter anymore than we would want ours to be. A large part of me is furious and thinks, no fuck them, they could stand up and oppose this. But the other part of me thinks that I would be too scared to risk 15 years in a Russian prison too.

I don't think they can rescue themselves, because being in Russia is already being in prison and under threat. They can only be rescued.

A bit of passive resistance would be a good thing, though. Lots of bone-spurs...

Part of me is wondering if we need to welcome Russians fleeing mobilisation. He can't fight a war if all his cannon fodder has been granted sanctuary by his enemies.

Sky News, a little about the protests... copied and pasted so sorry if format a little wobbly.

Anger in Moscow after mobilisation order
Now to Moscow, Putin's partial mobilisation announcement earlier today has brought people out on to the streets.
Sky's Diana Magnay reports from the city.
"We haven't seen protests in cities for the last five or six months, people have been so scared of the fact that they will be detained and that is clearly what is happening.
"But this mobilisation announcement has brought people out on to the streets here in Moscow and in various other cities across the country.Police are dealing with them very brutally, it's extraordinary to see how brave people are being to hear them chanting 'no to war', to brave the police reaction.
"I'm not saying everybody in this country is against this partial mobilisation, I’ve been out on the streets talking to people today and some people, especially the older generation, are saying, 'this is what we have to do, we have to save the people of Donbas', and they soak up Vladimir Putin's rhetoric.
"But there are people here who don't agree with this, who are worried about this escalation, who don't want to go and have to fight.
"This is something that the Kremlin has avoided, they have said this entire duration, that they are not considering a partial or full mobilisation and just two weeks after that counteroffensive, president Putin makes that announcement."

Sadly you'd need to be very careful with the vetting....

A few tens of thousands of supposed refusniks of fighting age crossing into western Europe ATM might give the security services a few jitters.

Footage of the protests on Arbat

twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1572625388265938944?t=Wge0qBbC9Qfid8v5sK9lFg&s=19
A crowd gathered this evening on Arbat, Moscow's main pedestrian street, shouts "Send Putin to the trenches!"

But on the other hand, surely change has to come from within Russia, it can’t be imposed from the outside?

It's a tough one. I feel angry at the thought that a lot if them didn't protest when Ukrainians were, and continued to be killed daily, but when it's their necks on the line, all of a sudden we have to welcome them? Some people will say that they couldn't protest, that they would have ended in prison, but prisons aren't made of rubber. They couldn't lock everyone up.

Also, it's the rich kids of all the governors et Al that would be on the plane first.

Indeed, and it is only part of me. The other part of me is screaming that you get the leaders you deserve, so fuck em. But then I look at Johnson and Truss and I'm back to having a bit of sympathy.

Um.

The ordinary Germans couldn't rescue themselves from the Nazis; they had to be rescued. But the ones who were rescued were not all evil and were not all cowards; they just were not as brave as say Martin Niemöller, prepared to be imprisoned and sent to concentration camps and perhaps tortured to death. Maybe they had children whose lives they didn't want to risk, or other dependents, or maybe they even believed all the lies until they were shown how mistaken they had been...

And then they set to and rebuilt their country, with help from outside, and made not too bad a job of it.

So it might be possible, if the ordinary Russians had help.

I grew up with a German surname and have quite a few distant cousins in Germany, you see. Some of the family were lucky and saw which way the wind was blowing quite early in the thirties, and got out; some didn't, and got conscripted instead. Their descendants whom I actually know now are just people, much the same as English people or American people or French people really.

The ordinary Germans couldn't rescue themselves from the Nazis; they had to be rescued.

Yes, via a military defeat. Nazi regime fell because Germany lost, militarily. Which is what needs to happen in Ukraine as well.

Putin has been speaking at an event marking an anniversary of Russian statehood and consistently referred to the war as the special military operation so no change in language and rhetoric for an internal audience.

twitter.com/flightradar24/status/1572630639655927815?s=21&t=JNuyWVSJAD5q5flVep8CzA

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime and that's the other part of the dilemma. Not all Russians agree with war, and sometimes there's very little you can do, because you are responsible for someone else (children for example). Some might have already protested, some are just really scared of going to prison, some don't think their actions will change anything.

(I know I'm contradicting myself here, I do this all the time 🙈)

The above link shows the flights pouring out of Russia today.
Looks like many Russians are voting with their feet, or at least getting their fighting age sons to safety.

If nothing else I wonder if this mass exodus will help with the flow of genuine information into Russia from the outside.

news.sky.com/story/ukraine-five-british-pows-detained-by-russian-backed-separatists-have-been-released-says-liz-truss-12702834

They are clearly speaking at some level. Diplomacy isn’t entirely dead. And this is wonderful news for these men and their families.

Wonderful!

But how is it compared to any other day? It's not like planes were not flying at all before.

Yes that's great news

Ukraine got lots of POWs in their recent counteroffensive, I think they would have asked for British citizens to be released as a thank you gesture.

That Flightradar clip looks impressive but to my eye it looks like the normal daily departure flow out of the several Moscow airports very speeded up by the replay function..so in short it's probably fairly normal.

There's no doubt seat prices have shot up though.

@Fladdermus I have often thought whether the divide and conquer ethos would work. I think it would work very well in an ideal world. The security risks would be huge and we are struggling to help our Ukrainian friends as it is.

Delighted that these prisoners have been freed. I wasn't sure that would happen.

I think old age must be setting in, I'm proper sobbing at the news of these young men being released and sent home.

Over 900 protesters have been detained and arrested in Russia tonight.