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Ukraine Invasion: Part 30

999 replies

MagicFox · 28/08/2022 09:05

We're now on our 30th thread, thanks as usual to all who contribute.

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MagicFox · 21/09/2022 11:57

Jesus, listen to the state duma member here. Absolutely crazy: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/best-of-today/id73330187?i=1000580165755

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katem98 · 21/09/2022 12:23

@MagicFox Any chance of a summarisation? I'm out at the moment!

MagicFox · 21/09/2022 12:29

You don't want to know, but when I say crazed I mean crazed. Angry, shouty, irrational, nonsensical, in complete denial about facts. Scary to listen to. And it comes across exactly that way. Our only option is to try to stay calm

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LoveLarry · 21/09/2022 12:38

Latvia saying that they dont consider "running away from mobilisation" as a criteria for a humanitarian visa

This could be when the average Russian who is now trying to leave the country actually realise what has been going on and realise that they are in a pariah state

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 21/09/2022 13:02

From The Guardian:

Nearly all flights out of Russia were sold out just hours after Vladimir Putin declared a partial mobilisation of reservists.
Google Trends data showed a spike in searches for Aviasales, Russia’s most popular website for buying flights, after Putin’s announcement sparked fears that some men of fighting age would not be allowed to leave the country.
Flights from Moscow to the capitals of Georgia, Turkey and Armenia, all destinations that allow Russians to enter without a visa, were sold out within minutes of Putin’s announcement, according to Aviasales data.
Within hours, direct flights from Moscow to Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan had also stopped showing up on the website. Some routes with stopovers, including from Moscow to Tbilisi, were also unavailable.
The cheapest flights from Moscow to Dubai were costing more than 300,000 roubles (£4,320) – about five times the average monthly wage.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 21/09/2022 13:07

And, again from The Guardian, a partial transcript of the Russian nutter on the Today programme MagicFox linked to, which I listened to and he was indeed frothing at the mouth and deranged!

The pro-Kremlin analyst Sergei Markov has defended Vladimir Putin’s partial mobilisation and blamed Boris Johnson and Liz Truss for the war in Ukraine.
Russia “has no reason to use technical nuclear weapons against Ukrainians”, Markov, a former member of the Russian state Duma for Putin’s party, United Russia, as well as a former adviser to the president, told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.
He said:
Ukrainians are our brothers but Ukraine is occupied by western countries and it’s western countries fighting against the Russian army using Ukrainian soldiers as slaves. [This] was the main idea of Vladimir Putin’s [address], that’s why we need to have this partial mobilisation.
“Everybody in the world now is thinking of nuclear war”, Markov went on to say, adding that such an escalation could be a result of the “crazy behaviour” of US president Joe Biden and former and current UK prime ministers, Johnson and Truss.
He added:
Biden, Johnson and Truss are fully responsible for the war in Ukraine.

MagicFox · 21/09/2022 13:11

Yep, Desdemona sums up his central point

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MissConductUS · 21/09/2022 14:07

Wow, lots of news overnight. Just a couple of thoughts. The figure of 300,000 reservists entering the fight is wildly aspirational. Russia can't possibly get any significant number of them deployed before winter.

Then there's the matter of updating their training, equipping them and supplying them. Russia is currently using 40 year old tanks and armored vehicles. They can't reliably supply ammunition, food, and water to the troops they already have deployed.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Ijsbear · 21/09/2022 14:09

LoveLarry · 21/09/2022 12:38

Latvia saying that they dont consider "running away from mobilisation" as a criteria for a humanitarian visa

This could be when the average Russian who is now trying to leave the country actually realise what has been going on and realise that they are in a pariah state

The media will spin it that it's yet more victimization of Russians.

Logic is not their strong point.

Igotjelly · 21/09/2022 14:09

For balance. Russian MP Evgeny Popov giving a slightly less crazed take on the potential for Russian use of Nuclear weapons (speaking to BBC):

He said that Russia will use nuclear weapons "only in response" and that it is "not going to attack Western countries first but will respond if attacked"... he added "we are not going to do some nuclear massacre in the World."

katem98 · 21/09/2022 14:14

@Igotjelly Nice to know that one of them possibly has a single brain cell.

MagicFox · 21/09/2022 14:21

@Igotjelly was that in response to the recent speech or the BBC interview Popov gave back in April?

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Igotjelly · 21/09/2022 14:27

The way I read it Sky News were reporting it was today as they also spoke of the referendums.

MagicFox · 21/09/2022 14:31

Yes just had a look, I think you're right

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RedToothBrush · 21/09/2022 14:56

Michael Kofman AT KofmanMichael
A few incomplete thoughts on the question of mobilization. It won't solve many of the RU military's challenges in this war, but it could alter the dynamic. Fair to say that these are uncharted waters, and so we should take care with deterministic or definitive claims. 1/

I wouldn't suggest that this can turn around Russia's fortunes in the war. However, I would take care being overly dismissive, especially looking out towards the medium term of this winter and 2023. Force availability and manpower matters, hence the implications can vary. 2/

The Russian military has had structural manpower deficits throughout the war leading to problems with recruitment, retention, and rotation. Units can't be rotated, leading to exhaustion. Number of refuseniks grew. Hiring short term volunteers exacerbated retention issues. 3/

Piecemeal solutions have led the Russian military to steadily cannibalize the force, using up officers, equipment, and enlisted professionals for reserve and volunteer units. Hence force quality degraded over time, as did morale, retention & exhaustion problems grew worse. 4/

Mobilizing LDNR personnel, and using them to absorb losses led to a variegated force that lacked cohesion, interoperability, and suffered from weak morale. This approach seems to have largely exhausted itself in July, few men left to forcibly mobilize in LDNR. 5/

The first and more important implication is not mobilization but enactment of stop-loss policies. Service contracts extended indefinitely, right to refuse deployment suspended, new criminal measures enacted to enforce what is a de facto introduction of wartime measures. 6/

Caveat, this is an initial interpretation of the order. But it implies that you can no longer tear up your contract in the Russian military or leave service. Volunteers who signed up for short tours (4-6 months) are now extended for the duration of the mobilization period. 7/

All mobilized personnel will be treated as contract servicemen, subject to these conditions. The situation with conscripts appears unchanged, but if Russia annexes these 4 UA regions, then it can technically deploy conscripts in those territories as well... 8/

The optimal time for Russia to conduct mobilization was in April, before significant parts of the force and mobilization base were ineffectually consumed. So, what can this 'partial' mobilization achieve for Russia at this stage? The disappointing answer is it depends. 9/

The first limit on mobilization is likely to be throughput - the system has to call-up, house, train, feed, equip, etc. Hence Shoigu's 300k number is likely to be notional, while actual mobilization proceed as a much more limited and phased process. 10/

That said, I'm skeptical that mobilization infrastructure has sat entirely dormant. Russian voenkomats have been calling people up to update their info since April. Assembling reserve and volunteer battalions likely exercised some of this system already. 11/

Since units typically train their personnel, its unclear what the capacity is in the system to absorb mobilized officers/soldiers, train them, and equip them. These are all uncertainties. Russian training of 3rd corps at Mulino might be an example of the approach (or not). 12/

Hence mobilization is unlikely to generate new units for several months, and even then the output will be a lot less than what Moscow might expect. Mobilization is a coercive process in practice & economically disruptive. It also depends on how Russians choose to react. 13/

However, RU mil could use mobilized personnel first to
raise manning levels in currently deployed BTGs, many of which seem at 40-50%. Morale of mobilized personnel might be low, but individual replacements can start filling these units out faster than establishing new units. 14/

Another approach might also be to deploy lower quality infantry regiments, akin to those currently seen among mobilized LDNR units, in order to hold large stretches of the line, i.e. the opposite of the 3rd corps effort to stand up a new volunteer formation with better kit. 15

The second main limitation stems from constraints on force employment. No matter how many personnel are mobilized, RU mil can only sustain and command a finite number of troops on the battlefield. Scaling has been one of the Russian military's chief problems in this war. 16/

Russian capacity to implement partial mobilization is uncertain, as is the time it would take to produce results & how Russians will react to it. However, I'm also not sanguine on the proposition that it will make no difference. There's room for caution here. 17/

Morale will continue to be an issue. Stop-loss policies may yield fewer refuseniks, but more deserters. Most UA advantages will remain. What partial mobilization may do in the coming months, depending on what actually comes of it, is help RU mil stabilize their lines.
18/

This is in part why these coming months remain an important window of opportunity for UA to retake territory. Over the winter the contest will likely be one more defined by attrition and reconstitution. The extent to which mobilization can help RU reconstitute is unclear. 19/

Mobilization comes with significant political risks and downsides for Moscow, but it could extend Russia's ability to sustain this war more so than alter the outcome. As always, these are just initial impressions and a very imperfect reading at best. 20/

Perhaps a useful addition - mobilization & stop-loss might help Moscow stem the deteriorating quantity of the force, but not the deteriorating quality of the force & its morale. Having used up its best equipment, officers, & personnel, I don't see how this can be recovered.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 21/09/2022 15:26

Just listened to the interview, he's very immature. I call BS on it. Ukraine has already attacked Crimea (which Russia would regard as Russia) and we are all still here. When they make those threats it's because they are desperate and throwing a tantrum.

Vile idiots

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/09/2022 15:44

I thought this was interesting in the Kofman thread - ‘This is in part why these coming months remain an important window of opportunity for UA to retake territory.’

  • if only because I have read several times that we shouldn’t expect much more to happen before the winter.
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/09/2022 15:44

Sorry, don’t know where that bullet point came from.

MissConductUS · 21/09/2022 15:54

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 21/09/2022 15:26

Just listened to the interview, he's very immature. I call BS on it. Ukraine has already attacked Crimea (which Russia would regard as Russia) and we are all still here. When they make those threats it's because they are desperate and throwing a tantrum.

Vile idiots

They've also attacked multiple targets in Belgorod province, Russia. I think the attacks in Crimea are more significant and challenging for the Russians.

I think that the best reaction to Russian threats is to ignore them.

DFOD · 21/09/2022 16:07

MissConductUS · 21/09/2022 15:54

They've also attacked multiple targets in Belgorod province, Russia. I think the attacks in Crimea are more significant and challenging for the Russians.

I think that the best reaction to Russian threats is to ignore them.

Agree - eyes on the prize - keep grinding through with the hard work - ignore the tantrums on the sidelines because they are only there to distract and derail.

RedToothBrush · 21/09/2022 16:49

Rumours about why the broadcast was delayed, now include that during filming Putin had multiple coughing fits and then had chest pains. At this point doctors were called and they advised him to take a break before trying to record it again.

Personally I think this is bullshit, but its interesting to see, yet again, comments that his health is in decline. Again this may or may not be true but in terms of psyops its a way of suggesting he's weak.

MissConductUS · 21/09/2022 16:55

Protests against the mobilization have reportedly begun.

twitter.com/4freerussia_org/status/1572579818511933440

MagicFox · 21/09/2022 16:56

RedToothBrush · 21/09/2022 16:49

Rumours about why the broadcast was delayed, now include that during filming Putin had multiple coughing fits and then had chest pains. At this point doctors were called and they advised him to take a break before trying to record it again.

Personally I think this is bullshit, but its interesting to see, yet again, comments that his health is in decline. Again this may or may not be true but in terms of psyops its a way of suggesting he's weak.

I thought it was pre-recorded?

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MagicFox · 21/09/2022 16:56

Ah sorry, misread. Yes I don't believe that either

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