I envy people who have Faith

[BlueBloodedBlue]

I don't but it must be a real comfort to believe in a higher power and have something that gives a meaning to everything.

That's it really.

@Malie I sm someone who doesn't want to live independently of God. I would love to get my faith back. I don't blame him for the things that have gone wrong in my own life, I know I am to blame for the response to what happened to me. However, how can you look at the world and conclude that God is powerful and loving? As I've got older I just can't see a loving God allowing all these awful things happening to innocent people. Just to say 'we can't understand in this life' is not enough for me.

This is frustrating. If a person does not believe in your god than that person will not blame that god when something goes wrong. Please stop continually putting this on others.

Unfortunately mankind’s wrong-doing affects everyone around him. Someone I know recently was robbed of £5000 of their life savings by a scam. Wrongdoing (which the Bible calls ‘sin’) sadly affects everyone across the board. Putin invading Ukrainian has involved untold suffering. Man decides to go his own way and sadly these things happen. Man wAnted his own way and crucified the Son of God, so God can identify with it.

Oh boy! Just read some of the posts! Just listen to Stephen Fry!

Oh boy! Just read some of the posts! Just listen to Stephen Fry!

Stephen Fry isn't blaming God, you've entirely misunderstood his quote.

He repeatedly says if there was a God.

It's a theoretical debate.

IF there was a god, Fry believes he could not be described as 'loving' for the reasons Fry outlines.

Which is why he doesn't believe in one.

Genuine question: If someone said "what would you say if aliens came to earth" and the answer was "I don't believe in aliens but if they came to earth I would ask them why they didn't make contact until now", would you say that would mean that person did believe in aliens?

Hypotheticals are a useful way of explaining one's point of view and debating things.

You don't seem to understand the concept of hypothetical, theoretical discussions?

@wellhelloitsme very well put.

Atheists do tend to discuss god in hypothetical terms, especially when debating belief. Doesn't mean we believe he exists or that we blame him for anything. Because we believe he doesn't exist.

So when believers state things as fact, it gets a little irritating - because they are not engaging with the hypotheticals.

You are wrong there! I do! Fry hates the God he doesn’t believe in. Actually I don’t believe in his straw man God either!

@Malie

Another way of putting it to try to make you understand the Fry quote / the nature of hypothetical debate is that when Christians say 'if there isn't a god then life is meaningless' I wouldn't say 'aha so you are blaming the absence of god for life being meaningless, so you must believe in the absence of god!'

Because as I'm sure you can see, that would be a nonsensical and ludicrous response.

Hypothetical and theoretical discussions are really useful when discussing concepts. I genuinely don't think you understand that.

@Malie

Fry hates the God he doesn’t believe in.

This statement makes no sense.

He cannot hate something he doesn't believe in.

He hates the concept.

You hate the concept of there being no God.

That doesn't believe you believe there is no
God...

Does it?

People who don't believe in God don't blame God, because they don't believe in him. Unless by love without God you mean people who do believe in a God they don't worship, but not seen any of those in this thread.

Another of the illogicalities of atheism

What? Do you not understand the concept of hypotheticals?

@Malie you truly are the champion of not getting it. Every time we try to explain the concept of a theoretical debate you take it as another opportunity to attack atheists and look for thr 'gotcha'. It doesn't make for respectful debate and it's very draining. As I said previously about another poster, if you want to bring the joy of the gospel to people, there are better ways. Starting with a little respect would be a good first step.

What he is saying is hypothetical because he does not believe in your god. He is not stating it as a fact. It’s purely theoretical.

@Malie

Another of the illogicalities of atheism

Good grief, you are so disrespectful.

I don't share your Christian beliefs but I know enough about Christianity (having been raised in a faith school, church etc) to know that your approach is absolutely 'unchristian' based on the principles of your faith.

You follow a faith that says the below is the word of god as these are from bible passages. I don't believe in god but you do. You are not following the word of the god you believe in (but I don't) so maybe it's worth you doing some work on yourself on that front.

Here you go:

Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Do to others as you would have them do to you.

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?

If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

@wellhelloitsme that's one of the bits of the Bible that makes real sense to me.

if You actually read what those verses say and put them in context, they refer to judging people not philosophical systems. The Jews of Hedus’ day accepted the existence of God as a given so would have viewed atheism as completely illogical. Let me point out to you the view of such a Jew - just read Psalm 14.
just read one of Jesus’ parables: Luke 12:13-21

’

@Malie just because people thousands of years ago viewed atheism as illogical that doesn't mean it is. People used to believe the earth was flat - it manifestly isn't.

The Bible is a book written by people, for people, in the context of its time. Just as modern writings are, in fact. This doesn't make either set of writings more or less true than any of the others.

Quite hilarious the assertion that people believed the earth was flat. Never know where that came from. Go back thousands of years they didn’t. Of course the Bible was written in the context of its time. It just happens to be true. Truth happens to be truth whether it was written today or yesterday

It always interests me how people want to live independently of God and then blame him when something goes wrong!

I love your comments @Malie . So true, everything you have said. Well said!

But it’s not the truth. It maybe is your personal belief, and that’s fine, but it’s definitely not a universal truth. Just because someone tells you something is the truth does not mean it is true. No one has ever met this god, you’ve never met him, I’ve never met him. Just “feeling and “knowing” that god is real does not prove that he/she/it is real. The bible is just a collection of stories of hearsay, therefore can’t really be used to prove this god’s existence either.

@Malie you're right about flat earth theory, that was a poorly chosen example.

But people did believe 'humours' caused illness. People believed in the literally 7 day creation (and some still do). What we know to be true usually evolves.

You saying the Bible is the truth does not make it so.

@Malie
Look, if someone read a book and hated the character in the book, and could talk at length, in a book club, about what the character had done to make them hate them, do you think that would mean they believed the character actually existed?
No.

Well it’s similar with atheists here. They are saying IF God existed, he would be an arse to allow the world to be as it is. They are responding to the character your narrative presents to them. That doesn’t mean they think he exists. That should be obvious to you.

And as for, the world is only awful because of what people do. Well no, not to me. The world is evolved on predation. Animals suffered and died because of how the world evolved for millions of years before people came along. Animals are evolved to feel pain and suffer. I just can’t look at the natural world and believe a loving anything created it. And you can’t lay that on human sin. Because we weren’t there yet.

They don’t. They are saying they don’t believe the terrible things that happen are compatible with your claim of the existence of a loving God who is interested in each individual and can intervene in the world at will.

They are not angry at ‘God’, they are angry at being told to believe in the idea which so hard with their experience of reality. They may be angry at those who tell them they should believe this.

A number of animal species, including our own, have evolved to have a strong sense of fairness and justice. So yes, people feel angry at things that are I just and unfair. That is what you are actually witnessing when you think people are blaming God.

OP I reckon like me you'd feel a lot better reading about science, how we are all made of the same atoms etc that stars and the universe is, and the moon, the oceans, the trees and the wind, etc. It is truly magical. I will never be religious but once I read about all of that science it blew my mind and now I feel a part of nature - something way more powerful than I realised I was - and I can't feel alone, now, ever. Its an awe inspiring world that we love in.