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I envy people who have Faith

772 replies

BlueBloodedBlue · 27/08/2022 20:38

I don't but it must be a real comfort to believe in a higher power and have something that gives a meaning to everything.

That's it really.

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Onebreathmore · 01/09/2022 16:40

Vincitveritas · 01/09/2022 15:20

Please don't use the tiny hate group that is the Westboro Baptist Church as an example of the thoughts and actions of the Christian community at large.

I wasn’t. Please read what I said again. I was linking the mentality that if people are offended by what you say, then you must be being holy, to what @DaisyJoy1 was saying. It’s an disturbing mentality.

Vincitveritas · 01/09/2022 16:41

Back to the debate about surgery vs God's healing, this surgeon makes a good case:

biologos.org/articles/a-balanced-prescription-healing-through-medicine-healing-through-prayer

Bloodoranged · 01/09/2022 16:43

Vincitveritas · 01/09/2022 16:22

I don't see DaisyJoy as having a victim complex, that's your perspective. The WBC have overlooked the two most fundamental lessons from Jesus - love your neighbour as yourself and don't judge others.

The whole "I expect atheists to feel angry at me but I just feel so sorry for them" seems a bit victim complex to me.

If an atheist started talking about they pity religious people, that they are crazy and that they will never find true joy and happiness would you rush to defend them?

Onebreathmore · 01/09/2022 16:45

Vincitveritas · 01/09/2022 16:31

I can't speak for DaisyJoy of course, but I think she meant well and wasn't implying Christians are better than everyone else (because we most certainly are not).

I am sure she did mean well. But she didn’t do well. She was insulting and offensive and superior.

Vincitveritas · 01/09/2022 16:45

orbitalcrisis · 01/09/2022 16:38

I don't need a higher power to find meaning in things. The science behind reality is fascinating and of course, meaningful!

The idea of living forever sounds excruciating! The boredom! The idea that dead relatives are watching me every time I fart, scratch my arse or masturbate! No thanks! And when I die I have to spend eternity watching first my children and grandchildren, then their descendants! People I will never actually meet but assume I will become invested in as they are my offspring's offspring's offspring, etc. I can watch them make mistakes but do nothing to stop them, cannot offer them advice or a hug, I just have to sit back and watch the disaster unfold.... Sounds like absolute hell.

No, when I die I take great comfort in the fact that all my worries and worrying will be over. I will embrace the nothingness with relief!

That sounds awful to me too! The idea of Heaven and then eventually a new earth in Christianity is not this concept of the afterlife.

Vincitveritas · 01/09/2022 16:48

Bloodoranged · 01/09/2022 16:43

The whole "I expect atheists to feel angry at me but I just feel so sorry for them" seems a bit victim complex to me.

If an atheist started talking about they pity religious people, that they are crazy and that they will never find true joy and happiness would you rush to defend them?

No, but respect works both ways and atheists (not you personally) can be deliberately hurtful in their criticism of faith. You can't lump everyone together.

Bloodoranged · 01/09/2022 16:53

Vincitveritas · 01/09/2022 16:48

No, but respect works both ways and atheists (not you personally) can be deliberately hurtful in their criticism of faith. You can't lump everyone together.

So it's okay for religious people to say those things to atheists but not vice versa.

wellhelloitsme · 01/09/2022 16:55

@Vincitveritas

No, but respect works both ways and atheists (not you personally) can be deliberately hurtful in their criticism of faith. You can't lump everyone together.

Of course you can't.

But Daisy said she pities all non believers.

And that they will never find peace or happiness.

And that they're trying to fill a god shaped hole in their life.

Then you said she wasn't comparable to WBC because she isn't judgemental.

She was hugely judgmental, to an offensive degree.

Even if you agree with her core beliefs, I'm surprised you think her approach, wording and tone of voice aren't judgemental.

Just as I would think a fellow atheist was nasty and unnecessarily disrespectful for saying they pity people of faith and people of faith will never ever find peace or happiness, that they're simply trying to fill something missing in them with religion etc, so too should (IMO) Christians like you be able to recognise when a fellow Christian is being disrespectful and say they are wrong to do so.

Vincitveritas · 01/09/2022 16:56

You're putting words in my mouth now Bloodoranged, that's not what I said. It's not ok to judge others, whoever they might be.

wellhelloitsme · 01/09/2022 16:59

Missed a 'being' there...

Just as I would think a fellow atheist was being nasty and unnecessarily disrespectful for saying they pity people of faith and people of faith will never ever find peace or happiness, that they're simply trying to fill something missing in them with religion etc, so too should (IMO) Christians like you be able to recognise when a fellow Christian is being disrespectful and say they are wrong to do so.

pointythings · 01/09/2022 17:05

@wellhelloitsme exactly. As a confirmed atheist I will always call out fellow atheists who go on about 'sky fairies' and 'imaginary friends'. It's incredibly rude.

What @DaisyJoy1 said about atheists is on exactly the same level and seeing a believer who has thus far been open, respecful and a pleasure to engage with defend that kind of talk is disappointing.

Vincitveritas · 01/09/2022 17:09

Thank you for calling it out pointythings 👍I'm not defending anyone; you're asking me to pass judgement on DaisyJoy, which I'm obviously not going to do. This is starting to become an angry pile on which I don't think is helpful to anyone. I am sorry if any of you felt offended.

pointythings · 01/09/2022 17:14

@Vincitveritas it isn't about passing judgement. It's about pointing out, believer to believer, that if you want to engage with people who believe differently from you, it's better to do so openly and respectfully. If evangelising is about bringing the gospel to others, it's best not to go in saying 'Basically I pity you, your beliefs are shit and you're turning to drugs and materialism because you need God in your life'. You're not going to bring anyone in like that, are you? It's about you pointing out that there are better, more respecful ways of communicating. You'd probably have more of an impact than we atheists would.

Vincitveritas · 01/09/2022 17:22

I do see what you're saying pointythings.

Hawkins001 · 01/09/2022 18:33

Vincitveritas · 01/09/2022 15:33

Milk, no sugar please 😋

So, it appears you do have faith of sorts; in this case, in humanity.

one cuppa coming up, x

I guess yes, I do have some faith in humanity.

Hawkins001 · 01/09/2022 18:42

DaisyJoy1 · 01/09/2022 09:12

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! 😊

I always find it so sad that there is such a hostility towards God, and towards Christians who want other people to be able to experience God's love. The saddest thing is that this 'arrogance' comes from a place of love. To keep God's love a secret, to downplay it so as to not cause offence, or to pretend it's anything less than it is, would be dishonest, and disrespectful - both to our fellow humans and to God. It would not be loving to lie about something so life-changing and essential.

So I understand and have experienced a great deal this anger, irritation, frustration, that atheists feel when someone talks about God. It's normal, and expected. I don't feel any anger towards you for your response to what I've said and fully expected it when writing it 😊But as Christians, we are called to share with people about Jesus, and the love of God, even if it means that people become angry with you. We are also called to love one another, and it's impossible to love someone without being honest about who God is. If I were to be dishonest with you about this, it would be the opposite of loving. To cause mild offence is better than denying someone the truth about God.

And i'm sorry if you disagree about the 'God shaped hole', but this isn't something I am going to suddenly 'unlearn' because it has caused mild offence on a chatroom! It's also not something that I have pulled out of thin air. People have always had this, since the beginning of time. Literally every known society has had religious beliefs, a god, or gods, or searched for god, or made their own gods, because as humans we simply have a need for God. The craving for, and search for God is a very basic anthropological fact, even without faith.

I need to head back to work now (currently abroad and this is rather in the middle of my working day - got distracted chatting and have been slacking a bit!) so better get back to it! Enjoyed this conversation, always interesting to read other people's thoughts. Good bye, and thanks again! 😁🌻

How is it showing gods, love when at a gay pride March recently their were some Christians with bibles preaching that they were sinners ?

where's the love then ?

Hawkins001 · 01/09/2022 18:53

DaisyJoy1 · 01/09/2022 08:14

As a Christian I feel desperately sorry for people who don't have a relationship with God. On so many levels. One of my Christian friends doesn't believe in hell as a literal place. She said that she believes that hell is actually the absence of God - people who are Christians will spend eternity with God, as He promised, and those who aren't, won't. And to be in an eternal state of separate from, or lacking God, is itself hell.

And I thought that this is true in life as well. Humans aren't meant to be separate from God. There is a God shaped hole inside all of us, and we desperately try to fill it with so many things. Friends, food, drugs, possessions, alcohol, career achievements, etc etc etc. But until we have a real relationship with God, we can't know real peace or real happiness. It's hellish to try to go through life without God. Looking back now, I don't know how I found purpose in life without God, or how I managed to get through the hard bits.

It's not just about having faith that everything will be okay and knowing that this world isn't our real home, although this is a huge comfort.

For me, it's about the knowing and understanding that we are so loved, beyond anything that we could ever imagine. It's about the fact that a God so powerful that He created galaxies, oceans, mountains, vast rainforests, etc, loved us so much that He voluntarily suffered a miserable life, being rejected and hated by the people He loved. He voluntarily suffered a death that was excruciating, humiliating, and degrading, all from His love for us.

And despite His great power, He still loves us enough on an individual and personal level that cares so deeply about the small details of our lives, He wants a personal relationship with us, He wants to hear us tell him our fears and our worries and our successes and our thanks. He stays with us always, listens to our prayers, and answers them.

I have always suffered with massive anxiety and one day I just couldn't cope with it anymore. I remember crying and asking God to show me that He was with me, and that He loved me, because it was a really dark day where I just felt so alone and couldn't feel His presence at all. At the time, I was living in a country where Christianity is not accepted, and while there are Christians, they are persecuted, and it's all very underground. I had been there for years and had never seen anyone publicly acknowledge or speak about God. But after that prayer, I went downstairs to the shop and a woman who had been quietly shopping when I approached took one look at me and, as if she recognised me, came towards me and was telling me with urgency and happiness that Jesus loves me, and that God is with us. When I left, she went back to her shopping. She wasn't just preaching to everyone, it seems that message was only for me.

When I got home I cried with happiness because that was the first time I had the realisation that the same God who created literally EVERYTHING loved me so much that He gave me what I most needed, when I most needed it.

Similarly, when a man from our church was rushed to hospital with a life-threatening condition, and things were looking really bleak, his wife asked us to pray for him as he went into surgery. We all did, and when he woke up the doctor was astounded that not only had he survived the surgery, but he seemed entirely healthy. Even the symptoms and side effects of the illness, that he should have had to live with for the rest of his life if, by some miracle he managed to survive, had completely gone. He was completely cured. I find that amazing too. That a God who is literally everywhere and in all things still hears and answers and heals individuals.

I feel sorry for people who are closed off to God because until you can open yourself up to God and accept His desire to have a relationship with you, you will miss beautiful and powerful things like this. You will miss this overwhelming sense of love which is far beyond any human love and which even as Christians we can't fully comprehend. It's so hard to explain to atheists because I know that this probably sounds mental. I would have thought it was a bit mental before I found a personal relationship with God and experienced it for myself.

But at some point, when you know God personally, atheists sound a bit crazy too 😁For me, hearing someone say they don't believe God exists sounds as insane as hearing someone say that, say, the Queen doesn't exist, or something. Like, how can anyone actually believe that there is no God? How can someone think that this perfectly functioning world came from absolutely nowhere? How can anyone believe in creation without a creator? But the things that make me know God with the most certainty are the things that have happened in my PERSONAL relationship with Him, things that can't be objectively proven (or even clearly explained!) to anyone but to me mean the whole world. And I think that's how it is for all Christians.

I really, really wish everyone could experience a relationship with God like they deserve to.

There could still be creation with out it being god,.just like humans can create life via genetic engineering etc, that then to those organisms would make humans god ?

Why does God have such an ego to require vast amounts of followers ?

why should eg science, ohhh must not develop x medical treatment as it's against God's wishes ect,

how many times does God enter into debates when humans are trying to advance in different industries ?

therefore what not have a relationship with ourselves and believe in the human spirit , and what humans can achieve, rather than a mythical beings ?

Onebreathmore · 01/09/2022 20:06

Vincitveritas · 01/09/2022 16:48

No, but respect works both ways and atheists (not you personally) can be deliberately hurtful in their criticism of faith. You can't lump everyone together.

@Bloodoranged wasn’t lumping everyone together. She was talking about @DaisyJoy1 in particular.

Sidonien · 01/09/2022 22:46

There's a YouTube channel called "Theories of everything with Curt Jaimungal" which has scientists and philosophers on to speak at the boundaries of physics and metaphysics. If you are interested in this kind of approach, I can recommend it. Some fascinating discussions. Very thought provoking.

Sidonien · 01/09/2022 23:17

He delves into the topic of extraterrestrial intelligence, as part of that, which came up earlier, so some might be interested in those ones!

Hawkins001 · 01/09/2022 23:38

Sidonien · 01/09/2022 23:17

He delves into the topic of extraterrestrial intelligence, as part of that, which came up earlier, so some might be interested in those ones!

Most excellent, my main concern is knowing human tendencies for war, is that we get into the galaxies and declare wars with the galaxies,
if there is already wars in the galaxies then that's a different matter.

Lampzade · 02/09/2022 07:31

I don’t attend church , but I have a strong faith.
This faith has been been a comfort to me during difficult times and has definitely shaped my life.
I am not the type of person who ‘bangs on’ about my faith and some people have told me that I don’t ‘ look like a person of faith’ whatever that means.
I do believe that there is a higher power ( God) .I choose to ignore those who go on about an ‘ imaginary person ‘ in the sky. Having discussions with such people is pointless imho.
. Similarly, lambasting those who do not believe in God is wrong.
I have met some lovely people who do not believe in God and have also met some nasty people who claim to believe on God.
Surely it is about trying to live a decent life whatever your belief

Malie · 02/09/2022 07:44

Lampzade · 02/09/2022 07:31

I don’t attend church , but I have a strong faith.
This faith has been been a comfort to me during difficult times and has definitely shaped my life.
I am not the type of person who ‘bangs on’ about my faith and some people have told me that I don’t ‘ look like a person of faith’ whatever that means.
I do believe that there is a higher power ( God) .I choose to ignore those who go on about an ‘ imaginary person ‘ in the sky. Having discussions with such people is pointless imho.
. Similarly, lambasting those who do not believe in God is wrong.
I have met some lovely people who do not believe in God and have also met some nasty people who claim to believe on God.
Surely it is about trying to live a decent life whatever your belief

Of course lambasting those who do not believe in God does not get us very far. But I do notice if you read the thread is there an awful lot of people who are lambasting people who do believe in God! What the Christian gospel says is that to live her life with God is the best life we could have because this is what we were made for and that Jesus has provided the way that we can live this life. God gives us the right to choose and if we don’t want to live the life with God he will not make us. Of course there are many decent people who do not share the Christian faith as we do but that is quite simply explain because mankind is made in the image of God who is good. The problems with the world are also explained because mankind is also a rebel against God and his values. Mankind decides to live the world of his own way and then wonders why it goes wrong

pointythings · 02/09/2022 08:28

Nobody is lambasting anyone just for believing in God. @Lampzade is an example of the kind of Christian who respects the beliefs of others and lives their life according to their faith - and that is fine.

The problem comes when someone states as fact that all the world's problems are due to human beings not believing in God and following his teachings. That cannot be proven. It is a belief and it is no more than that.

Malie · 02/09/2022 08:52

pointythings · 02/09/2022 08:28

Nobody is lambasting anyone just for believing in God. @Lampzade is an example of the kind of Christian who respects the beliefs of others and lives their life according to their faith - and that is fine.

The problem comes when someone states as fact that all the world's problems are due to human beings not believing in God and following his teachings. That cannot be proven. It is a belief and it is no more than that.

Sorry but you perhaps need to read some of the comments! 😀

It always interests me how people want to live independently of God and then blame him when something goes wrong!