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Friend has asked me to go to gp with her cos I see what she sees

108 replies

stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 18:44

Hi
This may belong in special needs but this disappears and also gets traffic.

Apologies it's going to be long .

My neighbour and I have become good friends , she is a single mum to a just turned 10 year old dd.

As I've spent more time around her dd she has clearly come to feel "safe" around me and I'm seeing the behaviour that is so worrying her mum.

My ex was a SENCO and he did a couple of assessments on which she scored highly for both ADHD and ASD.

But she is truly something else - my friend got really upset last night and told me she actually is wondering if she is a psychopath.

I am the only person who will sit her . The childminder gave notice a month ago due to her behaviour. Her grandparents don't like her . She goes to school but is doing work well below her age group.

I'll give a couple of examples of the behaviour- one example I thought might be borne of anxiety but the other - beyond me .

Friend and dd were taken out for a special occasion meal by friends dad .
Right at last min dd wouldn't get dressed. Threw every outfit on floor saying she hated them . Queue the usual shouting insults , door slamming etc . Would only wear tracksuit bottoms and wouldn't put shoes on - only flip flops . This was an upmarket restaurant. She wears shoes normally ,
When they got to restaurant she refused to get out of car . Her grandfather went and got her and she sat and scowled through the whole meal , is anyone spoke she was rude , and pulled faces , called them stupid , etc.

She talks as if she is always in a strop. Everyone is stupid . Everyone is an idiot. She calls her mum a fat idiot , and worse , and she gets physically violent , hitting and kicking her .
When we started to do workouts together she said she didn't want us to do it and took the remote , refusing to give it back and hit her mum . She called us weirdos.
Now she asked when we're going to start workouts again .

She's alienated the other neighbour by calling her a bitch , so now her two children aren't allowed to play with her . She denies and denies saying it - but she did. She is very sly , manipulative and lies with ease and convincingly.

Last night she got home from a week away with her father .
Her mum and I had made arrangements for a wine and takeaway.
When I went round she looked at me - just stared . I said "hi sweetheart did you have a nice holiday?" She didn't answer. Just glowered at me .
She started throwing a strop "Omg -der, why is vicar here ? I don't want her here . I don't like her . You already have friends . "

Mum said well vicars my friend too .

She then said to me "my mum says you don't have any friends . Your lonely . That's why she invited you for my birthday. She told grandad your daughter blames you for splitting with her dad . " all said with a smile - ever so sweetly. Friends flapping saying "I didn't say that " , I said to friend "it's fine - I know"
So I said to dd - well - that's quite true .
She slammed the door and stormed off . She hovered on the door a bit then opened it and went to hit her mum .
Trying to diffuse things we said we're having a takeaway- what would like ?
Answer " Omg . When I want a takeaway you always say no . "
Mum explains thats because she asked for one every night - I said well it's a weekend treat isn't it ?

She ripped the menu out of her mums hands , slammed the door and ripped it .

Undeterred we ordered. Food came . She refused to eat it . So we started helping ourselves to the chips - she screams "no! That's mine !" So we said we'll eat it then !
No. Then to me "your not allowed to eat it only my mum is - why are you here !?"

My friend is trying to stay cool and I'm talking to dd by this point . Finally when she said again "I don't want you here" I said "well that's just tough because you're 10 and you don't call the shots " queue crying , then she picked up a knife . (Carving knife from drawer) .

She carried on like this all night until she went to bed at 10.

This isnt bad parenting . Friends bloody brilliant with her , now my son is autistic but this is something else ....and it's relentless.
She was like that with me last night despite me doing her hair for gymnastic shows, baby sitting , painting her nails and doing her hair ,
Yet when I'm not there she asks where I am . She knocked on my door and asked me to go to her birthday tea . She knocks to show me what she's bought if she's had a day out .
When she says she doesn't like me it's often with a smile . (It wasn't last night - she wanted me out of her house !)

I've said to friend she really needs help because this isn't getting better. She's asked me to go with her to gp, because I see it first hand , I've advised her to get childminder to write down her observations and why she had to stop having her , all the SENCO reports, anything from school , and possibly try and video or record her .

She is always on the go and has a trampoline, does gymnastics which she's very good at .

She's nothing like my son was - I know all asd is different but this is something else . Could it be PDA? (I know that's still on the spectrum)

Everything is a battle . Everything is hard work and her mood turns in seconds . I'm worried not only
For her but as she gets older and bigger she's going to hurt her mum .
What the hell is this ? I've said she needs assessment from a child clinical psychologist. Friends been reluctant to go to doctor because she's an only child she thinks they'll just think it's bad parenting .
I will go with her - but my guess is getting a referral will take ages .
Does anyone recognise these behaviours/ traits ?

OP posts:
ZeroFuchsGiven · 06/08/2022 18:52

The thing that jumped out at me was the behaviour she displayed after being with her father for a week. How is that relationship?

stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 19:06

This behaviour is normal for her .

Her father says he can't see anything wrong , but he tends to let her do as she likes . He feeds her constantly with sweets , and does all the nice stuff that she wants to do .
Although my friend says she suspects he is a bone fide psychopath. Clever , manipulative, friend split due to his abuse of her but he went to court for access .

OP posts:
gingerchick · 06/08/2022 19:07

Sounds like my daughter before meds. She has ADHD, autism and PDA she has calmed down a lot since she’s been on daily medication.

stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 19:10

Ginger

What meds ? And how did you get them ?

OP posts:
jewishmum · 06/08/2022 19:13

I cared for a girl with the same diagnosis but as well she had ODD oppositional defiant disorder. I could be reading about the same girl, however she had gotten so out of control she was living in a secure mental health hospital and beat and verbally abused the staff regularly. No meds or therapeutic interventions seemed to make a difference.

gingerchick · 06/08/2022 19:14

She takes 25mg atomoxetine and 6mg circadin. She got them through being diagnosed, was referred through school and GP.

IncompleteSenten · 06/08/2022 19:15

Not very nice of your friend to be talking about you either to or in front of her daughter is it?

I think going with her to the go so you can help her explain with examples is helpful. The GP hopefully can refer her to different services.

Happylittlethoughts · 06/08/2022 19:15

Just wanted to acknowledge what a great friend and neighbour you are to this lady and her girl.

mathanxiety · 06/08/2022 19:28

@IncompleteSenten it's highly unlikely the mum has been talking about the OP with her daughter. A child like this will make up hurtful things.

OP this child needs to be seen by a psychiatrist and needs to be assessed for autism, ODD, and complex trauma.

How much of the abuse by the father did the child witness? Was the child directly victimised too?

ChocoButterfly · 06/08/2022 19:34

Seems like PDA.

She needs an assessment with a psychiatrist.

This post has a lot of detailed info (unless you've changed stuff) are you OK with that?

Mamasoon · 06/08/2022 19:34

Has your friend looked into Attachment Disorder? I have a step-son who was physically/emotionally abused by his mum and step-dad and he has this as a diagnosis. There seems to be some very similar behaviours.

newtb · 06/08/2022 19:39

I wondered about PDA, too. It's a nightmare.

BunnyChowLover · 06/08/2022 19:40

Nodding along here with the mentions of PDA - I can definitely recognise some of those from your post

NrlySp · 06/08/2022 19:40

My thought was that she probably wanted her mum all to herself after a week with her Dad and was jealous that you were there. Hence the bad behavior.
Her behavior does seem extreme.

Batmannequin · 06/08/2022 19:44

She needs professional intervention. Has she spoke to the school senco? I would advise that she requests a referral to a paediatrician who can take it from there. In the meantime, has she heard of 'In our place'? It uses the Solihull method to understanding our children and may give her tips on understanding/managing her behaviour. There is a specific module for children with additional needs.

Crazydoglady1980 · 06/08/2022 19:47

Without knowing her history it is difficult to say. Lots of diagnosis have similar traits, it could be ADHD or ASD, or attachment difficulties as well as FASD or a trauma response.
She needs support definately and the best place to start is the GP. It might also be worth preparing your friend that she may need to engage with parenting support, not because people think she is a bad parent but because in some areas this needs to be explored first.

gunnersgold · 06/08/2022 19:51

You can go to the gp and asked for a referral to a development paediatrician. Also get the school to do a Ed psych report ..
I would also ask for a social worker . It sounds hideous !

stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 19:52

Thanks all

My guess was PDA. School have referred to educational psychologist but I think she needs to see a clinical child psychologist too . The behaviour is extreme and I take my hat off to my friend in how she keeps her cool . It must be exhausting to live with . When I babysit I've had enough after 4 hours ! She seems to need to be in control all the time . She didn't speak to me for a full day because I made her sit in the rest seat of the car for a 10 min journey . I keep saying to my friend she really can't help it but she needs some form of intervention and mum needs some coping strategies on how to manage the behaviour before she gets much bigger .

OP posts:
Allmarbleslost · 06/08/2022 19:56

Sounds exactly like ASD/PDA to me. The behaviour stems from anxiety and the need to be in control.

tiredandstripey · 06/08/2022 19:58

There is a theory that personality disorders are caused by trauma in childhood. This sounds like the beginnings of BPD (although it can’t be diagnosed in adulthood, but the behaviours you’re describing around lying and manipulation and attention seeking are very BPD-esque). If the DD witnessed abuse and has a narcissist/abuser of a father then she may well have suffered trauma. It may be that combined with a neuro diversity such as autism or adhd or PDA but the potential trauma should be addressed first.

gunnersgold · 06/08/2022 20:04

I think you would need a diagnosis before you get a psychiatrist..
you can also ask for a camhs referral but that will be tricky to get to the top of the list .. if she can in anyway afford it go private .

Josette77 · 06/08/2022 20:26

Trauma is my guess.

stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 20:32

What kind of trauma would cause that tho ?

I also know my friend hasn't been talking about me in any derogatory way - it's more likely dd has heard me talking to her mum and used what I said to try and make me leave .

OP posts:
Unbored · 06/08/2022 20:33

I would recommend that your friends reads up on PDA and sees if some of the strategies recommended work.

SequinsandStilettos · 06/08/2022 20:50

On vicar lovely to see you in here (I recognise your name from many years back). Firstly, you are an exceptional friend and neighbour.
Secondly, it does fit an ASC with PDA profile and it is bloody exhausting.
As your DH will tell you, because PDA is still not officially recognised and because schools are having no choice but to promote Quality First Teaching, getting a diagnosis is hard. That's why your advice regarding documentation for a self referral/referral via GP is so important.
I wish you all well as I share the fears your friend has, that there will be pushback regarding boundaries/dc making poor choices/nurture as opposed to nature. All to avoid expenses constrained by school budget. I wish I had an answer. I don't.