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Friend has asked me to go to gp with her cos I see what she sees

108 replies

stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 18:44

Hi
This may belong in special needs but this disappears and also gets traffic.

Apologies it's going to be long .

My neighbour and I have become good friends , she is a single mum to a just turned 10 year old dd.

As I've spent more time around her dd she has clearly come to feel "safe" around me and I'm seeing the behaviour that is so worrying her mum.

My ex was a SENCO and he did a couple of assessments on which she scored highly for both ADHD and ASD.

But she is truly something else - my friend got really upset last night and told me she actually is wondering if she is a psychopath.

I am the only person who will sit her . The childminder gave notice a month ago due to her behaviour. Her grandparents don't like her . She goes to school but is doing work well below her age group.

I'll give a couple of examples of the behaviour- one example I thought might be borne of anxiety but the other - beyond me .

Friend and dd were taken out for a special occasion meal by friends dad .
Right at last min dd wouldn't get dressed. Threw every outfit on floor saying she hated them . Queue the usual shouting insults , door slamming etc . Would only wear tracksuit bottoms and wouldn't put shoes on - only flip flops . This was an upmarket restaurant. She wears shoes normally ,
When they got to restaurant she refused to get out of car . Her grandfather went and got her and she sat and scowled through the whole meal , is anyone spoke she was rude , and pulled faces , called them stupid , etc.

She talks as if she is always in a strop. Everyone is stupid . Everyone is an idiot. She calls her mum a fat idiot , and worse , and she gets physically violent , hitting and kicking her .
When we started to do workouts together she said she didn't want us to do it and took the remote , refusing to give it back and hit her mum . She called us weirdos.
Now she asked when we're going to start workouts again .

She's alienated the other neighbour by calling her a bitch , so now her two children aren't allowed to play with her . She denies and denies saying it - but she did. She is very sly , manipulative and lies with ease and convincingly.

Last night she got home from a week away with her father .
Her mum and I had made arrangements for a wine and takeaway.
When I went round she looked at me - just stared . I said "hi sweetheart did you have a nice holiday?" She didn't answer. Just glowered at me .
She started throwing a strop "Omg -der, why is vicar here ? I don't want her here . I don't like her . You already have friends . "

Mum said well vicars my friend too .

She then said to me "my mum says you don't have any friends . Your lonely . That's why she invited you for my birthday. She told grandad your daughter blames you for splitting with her dad . " all said with a smile - ever so sweetly. Friends flapping saying "I didn't say that " , I said to friend "it's fine - I know"
So I said to dd - well - that's quite true .
She slammed the door and stormed off . She hovered on the door a bit then opened it and went to hit her mum .
Trying to diffuse things we said we're having a takeaway- what would like ?
Answer " Omg . When I want a takeaway you always say no . "
Mum explains thats because she asked for one every night - I said well it's a weekend treat isn't it ?

She ripped the menu out of her mums hands , slammed the door and ripped it .

Undeterred we ordered. Food came . She refused to eat it . So we started helping ourselves to the chips - she screams "no! That's mine !" So we said we'll eat it then !
No. Then to me "your not allowed to eat it only my mum is - why are you here !?"

My friend is trying to stay cool and I'm talking to dd by this point . Finally when she said again "I don't want you here" I said "well that's just tough because you're 10 and you don't call the shots " queue crying , then she picked up a knife . (Carving knife from drawer) .

She carried on like this all night until she went to bed at 10.

This isnt bad parenting . Friends bloody brilliant with her , now my son is autistic but this is something else ....and it's relentless.
She was like that with me last night despite me doing her hair for gymnastic shows, baby sitting , painting her nails and doing her hair ,
Yet when I'm not there she asks where I am . She knocked on my door and asked me to go to her birthday tea . She knocks to show me what she's bought if she's had a day out .
When she says she doesn't like me it's often with a smile . (It wasn't last night - she wanted me out of her house !)

I've said to friend she really needs help because this isn't getting better. She's asked me to go with her to gp, because I see it first hand , I've advised her to get childminder to write down her observations and why she had to stop having her , all the SENCO reports, anything from school , and possibly try and video or record her .

She is always on the go and has a trampoline, does gymnastics which she's very good at .

She's nothing like my son was - I know all asd is different but this is something else . Could it be PDA? (I know that's still on the spectrum)

Everything is a battle . Everything is hard work and her mood turns in seconds . I'm worried not only
For her but as she gets older and bigger she's going to hurt her mum .
What the hell is this ? I've said she needs assessment from a child clinical psychologist. Friends been reluctant to go to doctor because she's an only child she thinks they'll just think it's bad parenting .
I will go with her - but my guess is getting a referral will take ages .
Does anyone recognise these behaviours/ traits ?

OP posts:
stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 23:50

Plus - in the real world is everyone going to be so accommodating? Surely she does need to learn some life lessons- ie - she doesn't always get her own way ?

OP posts:
gamerchick · 06/08/2022 23:57

I didn't read it all. It's obvious PDA and it's not as easy as her learning resilience for the grown up world sadly.

She needs a low arousal environment and I would seek out some maybe Facebook groups on PDA for strategies and more information.

gamerchick · 06/08/2022 23:59

I will say that PDA kids REALLY get adults backs up. But those feelings need to be squashed. They simply can't help it.

stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 00:07

I've always recognised that she can't help it .

So should I only go round when she asks for me to go ? Seems a shame for her mum and our friendship.

OP posts:
stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 00:08

I know for a fact she'll start asking where I am if I stop going . She does like me , and I'm very very tolerant with her .

OP posts:
Namechangetime89 · 07/08/2022 00:17

NrlySp · 06/08/2022 19:40

My thought was that she probably wanted her mum all to herself after a week with her Dad and was jealous that you were there. Hence the bad behavior.
Her behavior does seem extreme.

I think this too

She needs time to reconnect with her mum. It does seem odd that you’d go round (or be invited) the night she’s back after a week away? I think most children from an unsettled home/ dealing with change etc would struggle with this.

LargeLegoHaul · 07/08/2022 00:28

You were criticised on the SN board because you told an anxious ND (then) 9 year old you would “lock her up and take her to the cells”, which isn’t helpful, but you wouldn’t see that. I’m glad to see you now recognise responding as you did wasn’t helpful. You also repeatedly insisted on conflating intelligence and understanding with VCB and PDA despite being told VCB and PDA aren’t about understanding or intelligence, and repeatedly compared the child to your DS and “his circle” even though not everyone with ASD presents the same.

mathanxiety · 07/08/2022 00:28

What kind of trauma would cause that tho ?

Witnessing long standing abuse in the home. Inability to process it. One or more terrifying incidents. It's interesting that she went for the knife.

How bad was the abuse by the father?

How long did it go on before friend and her ex split?

What might the child have have seen or heard or sensed?

Is it possible the child was abused too? Physically? Sexually, Verbally? Emotionally/psychologically?

stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 00:29

Her home life is not unsettled.

She goes to dad at set times . She's with mum the rest of the time .

I don't believe she witnessed any abuse . It was psychological abuse - not physical.

This behaviour is triggered all the time and by what remains a mystery half the time . I truly don't think me being there was it .
I was meant to go out with them today but I pulled out - I know there would have been a battle over car seats . Then over something else if I'd said I'll sit in the back .
She often asks to see her mums other friends but then won't engage . Sits and sulks in car , refuses to join in . This isn't about me being there .

OP posts:
stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 00:31

I haven't seen friend today at all but still heard her dd shouting and slamming doors .

OP posts:
stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 00:34

Her father is narcissistic but it wasn't a typical dv type scenario.

He was abusive to mum but not openly . He cloned phones , didn't respect her boundaries but nothing was openly played out in front of their dd .

OP posts:
EmmiJay · 07/08/2022 00:35

I feel so sorry for your friend (the mum) because its bloody hard constantly making everything ✨️just so✨️ to keep some sort of peace in her house. My DD is 8 and autistic; her meltdowns can be loud, very physical/verbal and can go on for upto an hour. She's not quite as bad as the young lady your friend has but I get it. I'm so glad she has a friend like you to support her because it really helps having someone there trust me.

To those saying (essentially) the mother needs to be firmer, kindly stfu. Until you're actually in that emotional tornado with a screaming, exhausted girl who has scratched, hit, kicked or shoved you whilst saying the nastiest things, you cannot say shit. Its hard work and I'm sure that mum is trying her best.

mathanxiety · 07/08/2022 00:36

Is she afraid of her father?

Psychological abuse leaves incredibly deep scars in children in the home. A child will pick up on what is happening even if she is not the target. A woman who is the victim of psychological abuse will not be able to be fully present and fully emotionally responsive to her child. Nobody can compartmentalise that much. Even a heroic effort to do so will result in a child who is confused and insecure and very likely frightened a lot of the time because it may seem that mum didn't see or hear what the child did. Mothers caught in abusive relationships are between a rock and a very hard place.

I think you need to stick with the friend and go around if you're ever invited, and keep up the relationship with the child. It's almost as if she is daring people to respond in an extreme way when she behaves as you have described. Show her you are not taking the bait.

stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 00:39

She's apparently, and seemingly fine with her dad . He provides the nice things in life - he has money . He lets her do as she pleases .

There are hints he doesn't get it - he told school when she talks in a nasty tone of voice he mimicked her and spoke to her as she spoke to him until she ended up crying.

But he says he just doesn't tolerate the behaviour so he reckons it doesn't happen . Her safe space is home with mum so that's where everything comes out .
But she likes her dad and wants to spend time with him .

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 07/08/2022 00:40

A narcissist who clones phones and engages in psychological terrorism of that sort will also be unable to keep that behaviour completely compartmentalised. I would be concerned that the child can understand that her father is dangerous.

Are there any legal barriers to taking the child to something like play therapy, or to a psychiatrist or psychologist? Does the father have to consent? This is sometimes the case in court ordered co-parenting, unfortunately.

stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 00:42

My op stayed mum is now looking to take dd to a psychologist or for someone to
Diagnose . Dad says there is nothing wrong. Total denial . But he's similar . So he would say that .

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 07/08/2022 00:44

Likes or fears?

A child will sometimes try harder to seem affectionate with someone she is afraid of. He has a cruel streak. She knows that. She knows that the stuff she wants could be taken away and that's the least of what he could do.

mathanxiety · 07/08/2022 00:45

Can he veto the idea of taking her to be assessed?

He stands to lose visitation after all, if it is found she is traumatised by contact with him.

stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 00:45

But there's nothing mum can do to stop him seeing her - she did stop him and he took her to court .

OP posts:
stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 00:47

LargeLegoHaul · 07/08/2022 00:28

You were criticised on the SN board because you told an anxious ND (then) 9 year old you would “lock her up and take her to the cells”, which isn’t helpful, but you wouldn’t see that. I’m glad to see you now recognise responding as you did wasn’t helpful. You also repeatedly insisted on conflating intelligence and understanding with VCB and PDA despite being told VCB and PDA aren’t about understanding or intelligence, and repeatedly compared the child to your DS and “his circle” even though not everyone with ASD presents the same.

Yep . I got my arse handed to me on a plate but I didn't know what else to do - she was launching punches at her mums head . What I said worked . She stopped . What the hell was I meant to do ? Stand there and watch as she punched her mum ?

OP posts:
stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 00:49

mathanxiety · 07/08/2022 00:45

Can he veto the idea of taking her to be assessed?

He stands to lose visitation after all, if it is found she is traumatised by contact with him.

I don't know . My plan is go with my friend to gp, tell them what's happening and take it from there .

OP posts:
LargeLegoHaul · 07/08/2022 00:53

What the hell was I meant to do ? Stand there and watch as she punched her mum ?

It doesn’t have to be one extreme or the other. As I said on your other thread when you posted a similar reply, there is middle ground between telling an anxious ND 9 year old you are going to “lock her up and take her to the cells” and doing nothing.

mathanxiety · 07/08/2022 00:56

If he has a veto, your friend will need a report from a SENCO to get the process of a court ordered assessment going.

Tell her to check the terms of the co-parenting order or the court approved agreement she has with her exH before she makes any appointments or this man will file a motion for contempt of court against her. A possible claim he could make is attempted alienation (he could argue that your friend is trying to find fault with his parenting and upsetting the child about visitation), and another is breach of the agreement (if there is a clause requiring his consent).

If a SENCO is willing to make a report (or possibly a GP) and if exH can veto assessment or treatment, she needs to get a solicitor and start filing motions petitioning the court to order whatever assessments are indicated.

The man she is dealing with isn't just in denial. He will actively try to sabotage your friend's parenting and he will use whatever details of the child's life he can to continue his psychological warfare against your friend. Men like don't give up just because they have been divorced.

stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 00:56

This was a fast moving situation.

Please tell me what I should have done . If I'd touched her it would have been assault.

What should I have done . Please impart your wisdom.

She was trying to hit her mother in the head with a remote control in her hand . What I said worked . It stopped her immediately. She didn't appear traumatised by it - she went upstairs, came down and talked to me as if nothing had happened.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 07/08/2022 00:58

@LargeLegoHaul - it is considered really bad form here to reference previous threads. If you want to continue to argue with the OP about something that cropped up on another thread, please take it to the other thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread