Friend has asked me to go to gp with her cos I see what she sees

[stillvicarinatutu]

Hi
This may belong in special needs but this disappears and also gets traffic.

Apologies it's going to be long .

My neighbour and I have become good friends , she is a single mum to a just turned 10 year old dd.

As I've spent more time around her dd she has clearly come to feel "safe" around me and I'm seeing the behaviour that is so worrying her mum.

My ex was a SENCO and he did a couple of assessments on which she scored highly for both ADHD and ASD.

But she is truly something else - my friend got really upset last night and told me she actually is wondering if she is a psychopath.

I am the only person who will sit her . The childminder gave notice a month ago due to her behaviour. Her grandparents don't like her . She goes to school but is doing work well below her age group.

I'll give a couple of examples of the behaviour- one example I thought might be borne of anxiety but the other - beyond me .

Friend and dd were taken out for a special occasion meal by friends dad .
Right at last min dd wouldn't get dressed. Threw every outfit on floor saying she hated them . Queue the usual shouting insults , door slamming etc . Would only wear tracksuit bottoms and wouldn't put shoes on - only flip flops . This was an upmarket restaurant. She wears shoes normally ,
When they got to restaurant she refused to get out of car . Her grandfather went and got her and she sat and scowled through the whole meal , is anyone spoke she was rude , and pulled faces , called them stupid , etc.

She talks as if she is always in a strop. Everyone is stupid . Everyone is an idiot. She calls her mum a fat idiot , and worse , and she gets physically violent , hitting and kicking her .
When we started to do workouts together she said she didn't want us to do it and took the remote , refusing to give it back and hit her mum . She called us weirdos.
Now she asked when we're going to start workouts again .

She's alienated the other neighbour by calling her a bitch , so now her two children aren't allowed to play with her . She denies and denies saying it - but she did. She is very sly , manipulative and lies with ease and convincingly.

Last night she got home from a week away with her father .
Her mum and I had made arrangements for a wine and takeaway.
When I went round she looked at me - just stared . I said "hi sweetheart did you have a nice holiday?" She didn't answer. Just glowered at me .
She started throwing a strop "Omg -der, why is vicar here ? I don't want her here . I don't like her . You already have friends . "

Mum said well vicars my friend too .

She then said to me "my mum says you don't have any friends . Your lonely . That's why she invited you for my birthday. She told grandad your daughter blames you for splitting with her dad . " all said with a smile - ever so sweetly. Friends flapping saying "I didn't say that " , I said to friend "it's fine - I know"
So I said to dd - well - that's quite true .
She slammed the door and stormed off . She hovered on the door a bit then opened it and went to hit her mum .
Trying to diffuse things we said we're having a takeaway- what would like ?
Answer " Omg . When I want a takeaway you always say no . "
Mum explains thats because she asked for one every night - I said well it's a weekend treat isn't it ?

She ripped the menu out of her mums hands , slammed the door and ripped it .

Undeterred we ordered. Food came . She refused to eat it . So we started helping ourselves to the chips - she screams "no! That's mine !" So we said we'll eat it then !
No. Then to me "your not allowed to eat it only my mum is - why are you here !?"

My friend is trying to stay cool and I'm talking to dd by this point . Finally when she said again "I don't want you here" I said "well that's just tough because you're 10 and you don't call the shots " queue crying , then she picked up a knife . (Carving knife from drawer) .

She carried on like this all night until she went to bed at 10.

This isnt bad parenting . Friends bloody brilliant with her , now my son is autistic but this is something else ....and it's relentless.
She was like that with me last night despite me doing her hair for gymnastic shows, baby sitting , painting her nails and doing her hair ,
Yet when I'm not there she asks where I am . She knocked on my door and asked me to go to her birthday tea . She knocks to show me what she's bought if she's had a day out .
When she says she doesn't like me it's often with a smile . (It wasn't last night - she wanted me out of her house !)

I've said to friend she really needs help because this isn't getting better. She's asked me to go with her to gp, because I see it first hand , I've advised her to get childminder to write down her observations and why she had to stop having her , all the SENCO reports, anything from school , and possibly try and video or record her .

She is always on the go and has a trampoline, does gymnastics which she's very good at .

She's nothing like my son was - I know all asd is different but this is something else . Could it be PDA? (I know that's still on the spectrum)

Everything is a battle . Everything is hard work and her mood turns in seconds . I'm worried not only
For her but as she gets older and bigger she's going to hurt her mum .
What the hell is this ? I've said she needs assessment from a child clinical psychologist. Friends been reluctant to go to doctor because she's an only child she thinks they'll just think it's bad parenting .
I will go with her - but my guess is getting a referral will take ages .
Does anyone recognise these behaviours/ traits ?

Hi @stillvicarinatutu I read at least all of page 1, and then read only your posts. I know that some people on Mumsnet can be nasty buggers, but I think you really drew the short straw with this one!

I am sure that as a Police Officer you would have been perfectly capable of disarming the 10 year old DD, and putting her arms behind her back and getting her on the floor, and to be still, But like you said she is a 10 year old child, and she was armed with a remote control, not a knife, so if you had even just pulled her away from her DM that would have been assault! I think that your comment to her DD that you would take her to the cells if she didn't stop, was a brilliant one. And her reaction of stopping, but still being fine with you later, shows that you both have - at least to a certain degree - the measure of each other. I think that her internal reaction to what you said may well have been something like "oh vicar thinks this is serious, I know that she cares about me, and would never actually put me in a cell, but maybe I had better stop this one".

Now obviously I just made up that little scenario in my head, but it could have happened, and is a much nicer suggestion than some of the ones the OP has had to endure on both this thread and apparently on a previous thread about the same family too. If the little girl had ben traumatised by what @stillvicarinatutu had said to her on that previous occassion, I think the most likely outcome would have been her acting really scared and panicky, or closing down on herself, but the only noticable response it really got was to stop her from physically hurting her mother. I doubt that any of the nasty buggers who have replied to you on here, and in such a horrible and scathing manner, would have put themselves out more than once for your Dear Neighbour and her DD. You are a true friend to both of them, and I bet you are one of the best Police Officers too.

I wish that I had any suggestions for you, and obviously particularly good ones, but I don't, all I can say is that if you have the emotional energy, please keep on doing what you have been for your Dear Friend and her DD, go along to the GP with your friend as requested, and continue to support her in coping with her DD, and in helping her get a long overdue diagnosis for her.

This sounds like such a horrendous situation for both DM and DD to be in, and as you are very aware, nobody is at fault here. I think that you are being an amazing friend to your neighbour, and an incredible ally to her DD. I cannot imagine just how bad each of their lives would be if they didn't have you as their safety valve (like on a pressure cooker). So on behalf of "the village" - the one it takes to raise any child - may I say thank you for caring this much, for a little family that you owed nothing to, and yet are doing so much for. Please have these very inadequate 💐 I would give you real ones if I could.

I was only saying what we do.
I rarely have visitors unless DC is at school. It overwhelms them so I don't do it. If that is DC dictating my life then so be it.

As I said I'm not judging, but I thought you were looking for advice.

And you can restrain a child physically without it being assault.

Hi @Summererfluff, this is a genuine question, can you please explain how you can physically restrain a non- related to you child, without it being an assault that has the potential to land you in court?

This may have changed years ago, but I am pretty sure that at one time raising a threatening fist to someone could be considered an assault, and if you actually touched them, that would be assault and battery?

Like I said, I am genuinely interested in how even touching a minor without permission, could not be considered an assault?

It can be possible to get MH, OT, SALT assessments via an EHCNA without the need to sit on the normal NHS waiting lists. It is also possible to subsequently get therapies provided as part of an EHCP without the need to sit on the normal waiting lists, often more frequently/for a longer period of time than otherwise typically available, too. Parents may have to fight for the support, but it is an avenue that is there.

Restraint does not have to be assault nor bending their arms behind their back or putting them on the floor. Appropriate physical intervention and restraint can be e.g. guiding them away from a situation or holding their hands/arms to prevent further violence, you could be sat next to or behind them on a chair or stood up, it all depends on the specific situation/environment/the people involved. A positive handling or NVR course may help the DM if she can manage to get it funded.

Thanks all

My ex , (the SENCO) gave her mum a booklet on NVR - she is pretty good at using distractions , but it's getting other people on board with the campaign of concern etc ....

Restraint isn't punching or hitting, it's holding someone or stopping them from doing something. There are various ways to do that (not raising a fist - that would be a threat of assault).
Anyone can use restraint against anyone else as long as it's proportionate to the threat that they perceive to be present. It needs to be fair, reasonable and not excessive.
There are numerous scenarios where children need to be restrained by adults for the safety of them or others. Police Officers and other professionals receive regular training in this.

Thank you for your explanation about what restraint isn't @Summererfluff, and I know that punching or hitting someone isn't restraint, it is assault (and maybe even battery). I am also aware that to quote you

"Anyone can use restraint against anyone as long as it's proportionate to the threat that they perceive to be present. It needs to be fair, reasonable and not excessive".

But I also know that without a witness, or a credible witness, it can be hard to prove that the restrainer was being fair, reasonable and not excessive. When the person being restrained is a child - and unfortunately if they are a female child this will be even more difficult - one has to be very careful to ensure that not only do you not badly hurt a wriggling, thrashing child, but also that in trying to get hold of them they are not touched in an intimate place - wriggling and twisting can make that very difficult. So trying to restrain a child that is out of control, and yet still stay within the permitted limitations, and prove that everything was above board, might make anyone hesitate to act.

I think that @stillvicarinatutu is quite the heroine, and obviously a brilliant friend to both of them. I do not blame her in the slightest for talking her friends DD down last time, instead of trying to restrain her. If she had physically restrained her it might have also led to the poor child no longer trusting her, and she already has too few an amount of people that she trusts.

Thank you ladyofshallot that's kind of you .

I have never had any cause to restrain her , and what I said did get the result needed . She didn't test me which tells me she realised what she was doing was wrong . It's easier for me because I'm not her mother.

She was less bothered by my saying that than the day I made her sit in the rear seat of the car . And if she does sulk with me , it's never permanent. She's been out chatting to me today . I think she knows I forgive and forget , as she does .

I'm passing all the info from here to friend . All the websites mentioned . I remember the fight I had to get a diagnosis for my son , and it helped me to talk to others fighting the same fight . I got what my boy needed , but it was exhausting at times . If I can help my friend get on the right track to a diagnosis, assessment etc it can only be beneficial for her dd . I think left much longer she will come a cropper - something needs doing before secondary school.