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Friend has asked me to go to gp with her cos I see what she sees

108 replies

stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 18:44

Hi
This may belong in special needs but this disappears and also gets traffic.

Apologies it's going to be long .

My neighbour and I have become good friends , she is a single mum to a just turned 10 year old dd.

As I've spent more time around her dd she has clearly come to feel "safe" around me and I'm seeing the behaviour that is so worrying her mum.

My ex was a SENCO and he did a couple of assessments on which she scored highly for both ADHD and ASD.

But she is truly something else - my friend got really upset last night and told me she actually is wondering if she is a psychopath.

I am the only person who will sit her . The childminder gave notice a month ago due to her behaviour. Her grandparents don't like her . She goes to school but is doing work well below her age group.

I'll give a couple of examples of the behaviour- one example I thought might be borne of anxiety but the other - beyond me .

Friend and dd were taken out for a special occasion meal by friends dad .
Right at last min dd wouldn't get dressed. Threw every outfit on floor saying she hated them . Queue the usual shouting insults , door slamming etc . Would only wear tracksuit bottoms and wouldn't put shoes on - only flip flops . This was an upmarket restaurant. She wears shoes normally ,
When they got to restaurant she refused to get out of car . Her grandfather went and got her and she sat and scowled through the whole meal , is anyone spoke she was rude , and pulled faces , called them stupid , etc.

She talks as if she is always in a strop. Everyone is stupid . Everyone is an idiot. She calls her mum a fat idiot , and worse , and she gets physically violent , hitting and kicking her .
When we started to do workouts together she said she didn't want us to do it and took the remote , refusing to give it back and hit her mum . She called us weirdos.
Now she asked when we're going to start workouts again .

She's alienated the other neighbour by calling her a bitch , so now her two children aren't allowed to play with her . She denies and denies saying it - but she did. She is very sly , manipulative and lies with ease and convincingly.

Last night she got home from a week away with her father .
Her mum and I had made arrangements for a wine and takeaway.
When I went round she looked at me - just stared . I said "hi sweetheart did you have a nice holiday?" She didn't answer. Just glowered at me .
She started throwing a strop "Omg -der, why is vicar here ? I don't want her here . I don't like her . You already have friends . "

Mum said well vicars my friend too .

She then said to me "my mum says you don't have any friends . Your lonely . That's why she invited you for my birthday. She told grandad your daughter blames you for splitting with her dad . " all said with a smile - ever so sweetly. Friends flapping saying "I didn't say that " , I said to friend "it's fine - I know"
So I said to dd - well - that's quite true .
She slammed the door and stormed off . She hovered on the door a bit then opened it and went to hit her mum .
Trying to diffuse things we said we're having a takeaway- what would like ?
Answer " Omg . When I want a takeaway you always say no . "
Mum explains thats because she asked for one every night - I said well it's a weekend treat isn't it ?

She ripped the menu out of her mums hands , slammed the door and ripped it .

Undeterred we ordered. Food came . She refused to eat it . So we started helping ourselves to the chips - she screams "no! That's mine !" So we said we'll eat it then !
No. Then to me "your not allowed to eat it only my mum is - why are you here !?"

My friend is trying to stay cool and I'm talking to dd by this point . Finally when she said again "I don't want you here" I said "well that's just tough because you're 10 and you don't call the shots " queue crying , then she picked up a knife . (Carving knife from drawer) .

She carried on like this all night until she went to bed at 10.

This isnt bad parenting . Friends bloody brilliant with her , now my son is autistic but this is something else ....and it's relentless.
She was like that with me last night despite me doing her hair for gymnastic shows, baby sitting , painting her nails and doing her hair ,
Yet when I'm not there she asks where I am . She knocked on my door and asked me to go to her birthday tea . She knocks to show me what she's bought if she's had a day out .
When she says she doesn't like me it's often with a smile . (It wasn't last night - she wanted me out of her house !)

I've said to friend she really needs help because this isn't getting better. She's asked me to go with her to gp, because I see it first hand , I've advised her to get childminder to write down her observations and why she had to stop having her , all the SENCO reports, anything from school , and possibly try and video or record her .

She is always on the go and has a trampoline, does gymnastics which she's very good at .

She's nothing like my son was - I know all asd is different but this is something else . Could it be PDA? (I know that's still on the spectrum)

Everything is a battle . Everything is hard work and her mood turns in seconds . I'm worried not only
For her but as she gets older and bigger she's going to hurt her mum .
What the hell is this ? I've said she needs assessment from a child clinical psychologist. Friends been reluctant to go to doctor because she's an only child she thinks they'll just think it's bad parenting .
I will go with her - but my guess is getting a referral will take ages .
Does anyone recognise these behaviours/ traits ?

OP posts:
PseudonymPolly · 06/08/2022 20:52

This isnt bad parenting . Friends bloody brilliant with her

The child behaved appallingly badly, being rude, abusive, trying to hit her mum and ripping things up. She was then bought a takeaway as a treat 🙄

She then continued her awful behaviour and picked up a KNIFE. And then 'carried on like this' until bed at 10.

Why the hell was she allowed to stay up until 10 with such behaviour?! She's a child and she's not being disciplined at all, not even a vague attempt at it...in fact she was thoroughly rewarded for her actions.

I'm not trying to be preachy and I'm far from a perfect parent but if any of mine behaved remotely like this their feet wouldn't touch the bloody floor they'd be in their room so fast. They'd not be seeing the light of day or having any treats whatsoever for a week.

There's possibly some disorder or mh issues going on but don't kid yourself that parenting isn't also a contributing factor. It seems to be a VERY substantial factor imo.

Chattycathydoll · 06/08/2022 20:55

i Would also wonder about trauma & BPD, especially the ‘go away/no don’t leave’ reaction. Did she ever have counselling after her parents split?

NoiceToight · 06/08/2022 21:04

Trauma and PDA jump out at me too. Sounds very like some of the teenagers I have worked with. Some have had the most horrendously abusive childhoods/in care etc. She needs some intervention asap.

thenewduchessoflapland · 06/08/2022 21:06

Unfortunately it's not uncommon for some children/adults with ASD to not like people in their home which they regard as their personal space to the point some people cannot have guests at all.

Also some people with ASD have issue with those close to them having other relationships with people;possessiveness and jealousy come into play here along with obsessional behaviour.

The refusal to go into a restaurant is quite normal:being somewhere new with food they've not had before with a lot going on around them especially noise is very overwhelming.A few months ago we went to a restaurant with my 16 year DD who has ASD and it ended badly;she sat and cried through part of the meal and then had a panic attack when a toddler started screaming.

Their on courses your friend can go on which will help her understand her behaviour and help with coping mechanisms.She could also try her local branch of the national autistic society to see if there's any local support groups.

I'd also suggest she looks at alternate settings education wise;her mainstream school might not be the best place for her.

BananaSpanner · 06/08/2022 21:06

I have no idea about the diagnosis and her behaviour is unacceptable but I was an only child of a single parent and if I’d have returned home from a week away at just turned 10 to find out my mum had a friend over, I’d be pretty gutted too (I’d have probably just acted sulky tho).
She clearly wanted her mum to herself and whilst I can see why her mum didn’t give in, it was a poor choice to start with.

Her behaviour is v extreme but I’m not sure you should go to the doc with mum. Is it possible you are unintentionally part of the problem? You are very involved with them.

Hankunamatata · 06/08/2022 21:10

She needs to go to GP now and ask firmly for asd and adhd assessment.

We went privately for adhd assement for one of ours as meant the doctor could privately prescribe adhd meds once diagnosed. Best money we have ever spent.
The book 'the explosive child' is good

stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 21:14

PseudonymPolly · 06/08/2022 20:52

This isnt bad parenting . Friends bloody brilliant with her

The child behaved appallingly badly, being rude, abusive, trying to hit her mum and ripping things up. She was then bought a takeaway as a treat 🙄

She then continued her awful behaviour and picked up a KNIFE. And then 'carried on like this' until bed at 10.

Why the hell was she allowed to stay up until 10 with such behaviour?! She's a child and she's not being disciplined at all, not even a vague attempt at it...in fact she was thoroughly rewarded for her actions.

I'm not trying to be preachy and I'm far from a perfect parent but if any of mine behaved remotely like this their feet wouldn't touch the bloody floor they'd be in their room so fast. They'd not be seeing the light of day or having any treats whatsoever for a week.

There's possibly some disorder or mh issues going on but don't kid yourself that parenting isn't also a contributing factor. It seems to be a VERY substantial factor imo.

I'd have once upon a time agreed with you- however doing as you suggested simply escalates the behaviour. My friend has lost it with her a couple of times (who wouldn't ?) but I assure you - this isn't a case of just being more disciplined. I see a lot of out of control kids in my job due to parental poor practice. She wasn't rewarded. She didn't touch the food . Even if she wanted it she wouldn't eat it out of the need to control the situation. She doesn't. Get her own way . But this is absolutely pathological- it's not simply poor behaviour for the sake of it . I have some understanding of autism because my adult son is in the spectrum. I can absolutely tell the difference between a parenting issue and something more . Punishment doesn't help in this situation- it simply escalates the behaviour. I'm more robust in my approach because I don't have to live with her - so for example, when she went to hit her mum a few weeks ago I stepped in and told her that if she did there would be consequences. I got vilified on the sen board because I basically told her if I saw her assault her mother I would take her to the cells ( I thought this approach may stop the assault and I'm a police officer). It did work - but it was probably unhelpful in the long run . She doesn't respond to threats , or boundaries. I've realised that you need to use almost reverse psychology with her but the mental gymnastics is exhausting. I understand where you're coming from - but this approach simply doesn't work . She is wired up so differently that normal rules and boundaries exacerbate the bad behaviour, it doesn't help .

OP posts:
PineForestsAndSunshine · 06/08/2022 21:16

No advice, but you sound like an amazing friend and neighbour, and I think you handled the incident at her house really well.

I hope your friend and her DD manage to get the support they need.

stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 21:23

BananaSpanner · 06/08/2022 21:06

I have no idea about the diagnosis and her behaviour is unacceptable but I was an only child of a single parent and if I’d have returned home from a week away at just turned 10 to find out my mum had a friend over, I’d be pretty gutted too (I’d have probably just acted sulky tho).
She clearly wanted her mum to herself and whilst I can see why her mum didn’t give in, it was a poor choice to start with.

Her behaviour is v extreme but I’m not sure you should go to the doc with mum. Is it possible you are unintentionally part of the problem? You are very involved with them.

I am simply a friend trying to help a friend . I'm not overly involved at all- but since I am the only person now who will have her dd for any period of time if mum needs to go out - and I usually do
Have a good relationship with her dd - she asks for me when I aren't there . I see my friend for a takeaway and wine maybe once a week - I'm not there all the time . Her dd asked me to go and watch her in a gymnastics show the other week - this isn't personal to me . She doesn't just dislike me - it wouldn't have made one iota of difference if I'd been there or not last night . This behaviour happens a lot even when it's just her and her mum at home . The other week she wouldn't let her mum go to bed . She insisted she couldn't sleep if her mum was upstairs. She ended up trying to rag her out of bed and kicked her several times in the head to make her move . She moved alright - but not in the way her dd wanted . She carried the kicking screaming child back to her own room. This isn't normal just being naughty.

OP posts:
BananaSpanner · 06/08/2022 21:35

Fair enough. Hope she gets the help she needs.

SequinsandStilettos · 06/08/2022 21:46

No, it's not. It is clear you have decent insight OP.
To anyone else, it looks naughty/feral/out of control. In fact, it comes from deep anxiety. The child may refuse to eat, may scream blue murder wrt showering/teeth brushing and most significantly, may refuse to do activities the majority would consider a treat, if it is out their comfort zone or a cause of sensory overload. The reverse psychology/mental gymnastics of always giving multiple choice options, framing a demand as a question, making them feel it was their idea is hard work. Normal discipline, telling off, consequences, have little effect not does bribery.
Escalation and spiralling means the smallest demand becomes a mountain.

SequinsandStilettos · 06/08/2022 21:47

nor

Mariposista · 06/08/2022 21:56

What a lovely neighbor and friend you are to this poor lady. Kid sounds horrid. Hope she can get help before she really hurts someone.

stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 21:58

I know about PDa because my son was actually diagnosed with Aspergers by nine other than the wonderful Elizabeth Newson who first identified PDA as a separate condition.
I thank my luckies ds has Aspergers because he was a doddle compared to friends dd.

OP posts:
stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 22:04

The girls behaviour is horrible - but she isn't intrinsically horrible .
She's a 10 year old girl . She can show kindness at times , but she is also very testing. Some of the stuff that comes out of her mouth is difficult to deal with. She really does know how to hit where it hurts but with seemingly know understanding of others feelings .
When she was being seriously horrible to me I said to her do you understand that that really hurts my feelings ?
She smiled . Not because she had any understanding, because she didn't know what the expected response was .

OP posts:
stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 22:04

No not know ....

OP posts:
SequinsandStilettos · 06/08/2022 22:10

Kid's behaviour sounds horrid, kid themselves may have a different side when not under stress/duress. I doubt whether the child themselves takes delight in their own behaviour.

www.pdasociety.org.uk

Mollymalone123 · 06/08/2022 22:14

I have looked after a 9/10 year old girl in the past who had diagnosis of ODD and ADHD and there is a lot of similarities .Everything is on an even keel as long as she makes the decisions.Incredibly difficult to get her to do anything she wasn’t happy with and she had to be in control.Sorry I can’t remember more as it was a few years back but it was the first time I had anything to do with a child with ODD.

BlackeyedSusan · 06/08/2022 22:17

Yep. The restaurant/ clothes thing sounds autistic, throw in a dose of ADHD into the mix and you can see a lot of other things being due to neurodiversity. Congratulations on being a trusted adult to see these behaviours.

If she is in meltdown she will not remember what she has done. (Came as a revelation to me when told this by the neurodevelopment team)

Do go to the GP with her. It takes ages to get to the top of the waiting list.

stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 22:22

I know I'm a trusted adult - she feels safe enough with me to
Just be herself. Her mum said that too . But she needs intervention now . I am happy to go with her mum to give my observations to the gp.

And I know she does like having me around really - most of the time !

OP posts:
Heroicallyl0st · 06/08/2022 22:41

Hmm I thought similar to @PseudonymPolly to be honest, and your response to her firms it up even more for me. Good parenting isn’t about dishing out punishment, and boundaries are internal, not fences we set up for others. The mother seems to be engaging in back/forwards conversation with her which probably exacerbated things. I think the mum could probably benefit from getting counselling herself to help her develop her own inner boundaries and emotional resilience, which will in turn improve her relationship and communication with her daughter, regardless of whether the daughter turns out to have a personality disorder or not. And if it is trauma that’s causing the daughter’s behaviour, the mother getting counselling would help this too as it would help her notice and be responsive to the daughter’s needs underneath the bad behaviour.

Tilda77 · 06/08/2022 22:47

As I was reading your original post OP my first thought was PDA or ODD. I used to think the same about my DS when he was 6 years old. He displayed a lot of the same behaviours as your friends DD. He was permanently excluded from school at 8 years old. He has a diagnosis of ADHD but they didn't feel he met the criteria for ASD as he is good at giving eye contact. Years later he has an EHCP and a placement in a specialist school and is thriving. I agree with some of the previous posters about trauma. My DSs behaviour certainly escalated when me and my ExH split up(amicably)and when he was excluded from school. Everything was changing around him and he had no control over it.
Your friend is very lucky to have you to help and support her. It may help if you do go with her to the GP as I remember the GP almost refused to give my son a referral to the neurodevelopment services. The GPs reason was that my son was looking at him in the eye in a defiant way!

stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 22:53

I am gonna go with her for some support and to give my observations as an independent outsider with absolutely nothing to gain or lose from speaking the truth .

My friend handles things brilliantly tbh - better than I would . She also recognises that escalating things never helps - distraction works , sometimes. Choices work . She needs a diagnosis and some help - she's doing great as it is but I fear that more will be needed in future .

OP posts:
Summererfluff · 06/08/2022 23:23

You say you're not round there all the time, only once a week.
My DC has ADHD and ASD and if we had someone visiting once a week that would be too much for them.
I'd also never have a visitor round if SC had just been away or had a busy day or week. Again it would just be too much and lead to a meltdown.

I'm not judging, you sound like an amazing friend, but this might be something to consider when looking at coping strategies?

stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 23:31

So friend should have no visitors ? Due to dd dictating who can and can't be there ? It's fine we can talk over the fence but this seems like totally giving all the power to a 10 year old. 🤷🏻‍♀️

OP posts: