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Friend has asked me to go to gp with her cos I see what she sees

108 replies

stillvicarinatutu · 06/08/2022 18:44

Hi
This may belong in special needs but this disappears and also gets traffic.

Apologies it's going to be long .

My neighbour and I have become good friends , she is a single mum to a just turned 10 year old dd.

As I've spent more time around her dd she has clearly come to feel "safe" around me and I'm seeing the behaviour that is so worrying her mum.

My ex was a SENCO and he did a couple of assessments on which she scored highly for both ADHD and ASD.

But she is truly something else - my friend got really upset last night and told me she actually is wondering if she is a psychopath.

I am the only person who will sit her . The childminder gave notice a month ago due to her behaviour. Her grandparents don't like her . She goes to school but is doing work well below her age group.

I'll give a couple of examples of the behaviour- one example I thought might be borne of anxiety but the other - beyond me .

Friend and dd were taken out for a special occasion meal by friends dad .
Right at last min dd wouldn't get dressed. Threw every outfit on floor saying she hated them . Queue the usual shouting insults , door slamming etc . Would only wear tracksuit bottoms and wouldn't put shoes on - only flip flops . This was an upmarket restaurant. She wears shoes normally ,
When they got to restaurant she refused to get out of car . Her grandfather went and got her and she sat and scowled through the whole meal , is anyone spoke she was rude , and pulled faces , called them stupid , etc.

She talks as if she is always in a strop. Everyone is stupid . Everyone is an idiot. She calls her mum a fat idiot , and worse , and she gets physically violent , hitting and kicking her .
When we started to do workouts together she said she didn't want us to do it and took the remote , refusing to give it back and hit her mum . She called us weirdos.
Now she asked when we're going to start workouts again .

She's alienated the other neighbour by calling her a bitch , so now her two children aren't allowed to play with her . She denies and denies saying it - but she did. She is very sly , manipulative and lies with ease and convincingly.

Last night she got home from a week away with her father .
Her mum and I had made arrangements for a wine and takeaway.
When I went round she looked at me - just stared . I said "hi sweetheart did you have a nice holiday?" She didn't answer. Just glowered at me .
She started throwing a strop "Omg -der, why is vicar here ? I don't want her here . I don't like her . You already have friends . "

Mum said well vicars my friend too .

She then said to me "my mum says you don't have any friends . Your lonely . That's why she invited you for my birthday. She told grandad your daughter blames you for splitting with her dad . " all said with a smile - ever so sweetly. Friends flapping saying "I didn't say that " , I said to friend "it's fine - I know"
So I said to dd - well - that's quite true .
She slammed the door and stormed off . She hovered on the door a bit then opened it and went to hit her mum .
Trying to diffuse things we said we're having a takeaway- what would like ?
Answer " Omg . When I want a takeaway you always say no . "
Mum explains thats because she asked for one every night - I said well it's a weekend treat isn't it ?

She ripped the menu out of her mums hands , slammed the door and ripped it .

Undeterred we ordered. Food came . She refused to eat it . So we started helping ourselves to the chips - she screams "no! That's mine !" So we said we'll eat it then !
No. Then to me "your not allowed to eat it only my mum is - why are you here !?"

My friend is trying to stay cool and I'm talking to dd by this point . Finally when she said again "I don't want you here" I said "well that's just tough because you're 10 and you don't call the shots " queue crying , then she picked up a knife . (Carving knife from drawer) .

She carried on like this all night until she went to bed at 10.

This isnt bad parenting . Friends bloody brilliant with her , now my son is autistic but this is something else ....and it's relentless.
She was like that with me last night despite me doing her hair for gymnastic shows, baby sitting , painting her nails and doing her hair ,
Yet when I'm not there she asks where I am . She knocked on my door and asked me to go to her birthday tea . She knocks to show me what she's bought if she's had a day out .
When she says she doesn't like me it's often with a smile . (It wasn't last night - she wanted me out of her house !)

I've said to friend she really needs help because this isn't getting better. She's asked me to go with her to gp, because I see it first hand , I've advised her to get childminder to write down her observations and why she had to stop having her , all the SENCO reports, anything from school , and possibly try and video or record her .

She is always on the go and has a trampoline, does gymnastics which she's very good at .

She's nothing like my son was - I know all asd is different but this is something else . Could it be PDA? (I know that's still on the spectrum)

Everything is a battle . Everything is hard work and her mood turns in seconds . I'm worried not only
For her but as she gets older and bigger she's going to hurt her mum .
What the hell is this ? I've said she needs assessment from a child clinical psychologist. Friends been reluctant to go to doctor because she's an only child she thinks they'll just think it's bad parenting .
I will go with her - but my guess is getting a referral will take ages .
Does anyone recognise these behaviours/ traits ?

OP posts:
stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 01:00

Math
Thanks for that info I'll warn friend - he is incredibly manipulative.

At last meeting in school he told their dd he had "shown her mum up and found her out " which she came home and told her mum.

He's a knob .

Fact is this child needs intervention and her mum needs some bloody help . It's hard to stand by and watch and do nothing.

OP posts:
LargeLegoHaul · 07/08/2022 01:06

@mathanxiety OP brought the other thread up first, it is not bad form to reply to OP mentioning it, I am not arguing.

As it stemmed from homework leaving that would have been a start and may have been all that was needed. As another poster pointed out, many autistic DC struggle with homework as school is school and home is home. Talking to the girl without threatening her or losing you temper would help. Using PDA strategies, de-escalation strategies. Appropriate restraint if necessary as a last resort if she is posing a serious threat to herself or her mother.

Longer term, a referral to CAMHS, SALT, OT, applying for an EHCNA, social care assessments, looking at the PDA society and Yvonne Newbold’s resources.

Gagaandgag · 07/08/2022 01:08

Hi there my son has pda - here is the pda website link:
www.pdasociety.org.uk

You’re right the mum needs support and it most likely isn’t ‘bad’ parenting - it’s just the wrong kind of parenting for the poor little girl.

The poor girl isn’t a psychopath - behaviour is communication. If no one likes her she will know. Her behaviour will only get worse. Be the one who helps make the change. Love and support her. Don’t see her as ‘challenging’ or ‘naughty’ see her as scared!

This video is also very good!

Life is hard for families when there is demand avoidance involved - your support might make a huge difference- best of luck

stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 01:10

LargeLegoHaul · 07/08/2022 01:06

@mathanxiety OP brought the other thread up first, it is not bad form to reply to OP mentioning it, I am not arguing.

As it stemmed from homework leaving that would have been a start and may have been all that was needed. As another poster pointed out, many autistic DC struggle with homework as school is school and home is home. Talking to the girl without threatening her or losing you temper would help. Using PDA strategies, de-escalation strategies. Appropriate restraint if necessary as a last resort if she is posing a serious threat to herself or her mother.

Longer term, a referral to CAMHS, SALT, OT, applying for an EHCNA, social care assessments, looking at the PDA society and Yvonne Newbold’s resources.

Yes that's great but we aren't sodding experts in pda are we? You can sit there on that high horse and berate everything I've done but at least I'm bloody trying to help with child and her mum . Sod off with the sanctimonious judging - help me or go away .

OP posts:
stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 01:14

Gagaandgag · 07/08/2022 01:08

Hi there my son has pda - here is the pda website link:
www.pdasociety.org.uk

You’re right the mum needs support and it most likely isn’t ‘bad’ parenting - it’s just the wrong kind of parenting for the poor little girl.

The poor girl isn’t a psychopath - behaviour is communication. If no one likes her she will know. Her behaviour will only get worse. Be the one who helps make the change. Love and support her. Don’t see her as ‘challenging’ or ‘naughty’ see her as scared!

This video is also very good!

Life is hard for families when there is demand avoidance involved - your support might make a huge difference- best of luck

I absolutely do make it clear I like her company and I often do things that show that , whether it be go to her tea party, give her birthday cards and money (she actually hugged me for that ) or just painting her nails , plaiting her hair or just chatting to her . She knows I'm there for the duration I think that's why she is sometimes nasty with me - she's safe with me and she knows I won't turn my back on her .

She can be incredibly funny . Last time I sat her I have videos of her pratting about and she made me howl laughing. I do like her . I don't like the behaviour sometimes.

OP posts:
Gagaandgag · 07/08/2022 01:18

Hi! Sorry I think I wrote my message quite quickly as I was dealing with my little boy. I didn’t mean to make it sound in any way judgemental of you. I can see you only want the best for them and you are already going above and beyond to support the family!

I want to Thank you on their behalf - because I wish I would have had a friend like you who helped me /us with our son

stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 01:21

Gaga - I've forwarded that video to her .

Please do t apologise. I'm here looking for help
And advice- I appreciate it x

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 07/08/2022 01:22

At last meeting in school he told their dd he had "shown her mum up and found her out " which she came home and told her mum.

This is active abuse of the child by her father. It's attempted alienation.

He is using her as a pawn in an ongoing war against your friend.

All incidents of this sort need to be documented.

Play therapy might be very useful.

MsBallen · 07/08/2022 01:22

Op you sound an amazing neighbour and friend. No one here can diagnose this child as she could have a combination of things which is pretty common. Could be PDA, ODD, BPD, PTSD. All kinds of combinations.

First thing is absolutely go with her to the gp. Write down all areas of concern with behaviour. If possible to film some behaviour when it happens it gives experts a real chance to see or hear it rather than being fobbed off.
Your friend also needs to have a meeting with her child's headteacher and class teacher and ask for a cahms referral and find out how her behaviour is at school.
It would probably be best if your friend also spoke to a family solicitor in regards to medical decisions for her DD being refused or compromised by her ex and what she can do about it in court.

In the mean time maybe look i to the pda society online as they have some de esculation techniques that may help in the meantime. It's all about de esculation and making the child feel safe and not out of control.

My smoothies for the mother. My nephew has pda and asd and it can be really hard work.

LargeLegoHaul · 07/08/2022 01:22

stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 01:10

Yes that's great but we aren't sodding experts in pda are we? You can sit there on that high horse and berate everything I've done but at least I'm bloody trying to help with child and her mum . Sod off with the sanctimonious judging - help me or go away .

I have tried to help. I signposted to support and advised on who to ask to be referred to and that it’s possible to get MH support via an EHCP. I pointed out not all areas diagnose PDA as a stand alone diagnosis so you/the DM weren’t taken by surprise if that’s the case in your area. I posted intelligence and understanding aren’t linked to PDA and VCB to try to help you understand more about the behaviour. Yes, I did judge on the comment on taking her to the cells, especially when you insisted it was the right way to handle it, because well, I think it is obvious that it is unhelpful - and I wasn’t the only one.

I’m not an expert in PDA either, and have never claimed to be. Not forcing homework on a distressed child and not threatening them or losing your temper aren’t specialist ‘techniques’, and I would have thought a police officer have experience in de-escalating situations.

MsBallen · 07/08/2022 01:24

Sympathies not smoothies.

stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 01:29

Lego .
Please bugger off . I've had more help from other posters and a lot less judgement.
I did de escalate the situation. What I said stopped her dd from punching her in the head .

You've still not said what I should have done ? You weren't there and you didn't see
The rage and violence being offered. I did de escalate the situation. She stopped . She went away . She came back like nothing had happened. Hardly traumatised by my words . I just don't want her using violence against her mother and my friend and I'm buggered if I'm ever gonna stand there and do nothing in that situation.

You've not
Offered an alternative solution. You're just criticising.

OP posts:
Gagaandgag · 07/08/2022 01:33

How does she get on at school?
Just a note that our son was diagnosed by the paediatrician with ASD with demand avoidance because PDA isn’t officially recognised because it isn’t in the diagnostic manuals.

Your friend could contact for support

www.kids.org.uk/sendiass

Also she might need a sensory assessment
She could start by ordering this simple book and going through it herself (the mum)

shop.autismwestmidlands.org.uk/products/sensory-profile-toolkit-a-sensory-resource-for-parents-of-children-with-autism

Anyway this is all a lot for you to take in. Best of luck to you all!

LargeLegoHaul · 07/08/2022 01:36

stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 01:29

Lego .
Please bugger off . I've had more help from other posters and a lot less judgement.
I did de escalate the situation. What I said stopped her dd from punching her in the head .

You've still not said what I should have done ? You weren't there and you didn't see
The rage and violence being offered. I did de escalate the situation. She stopped . She went away . She came back like nothing had happened. Hardly traumatised by my words . I just don't want her using violence against her mother and my friend and I'm buggered if I'm ever gonna stand there and do nothing in that situation.

You've not
Offered an alternative solution. You're just criticising.

Yes, I have in my pp, no I’m not just criticising. I posted leaving the homework is likely to have helped. Talking to her without threatening her or losing your temper. Deescalating without threatening an anxious ND 9 year old, using PDA strategies, and as a last resort using appropriate restraint, if necessary. I never once said just stand there and do nothing. I also posted what I would do longer term. Of course I wasn’t there, I haven’t said I was, none of the rest of us were there.

Wondersocks · 07/08/2022 01:51

@stillvicarinatutu fwiw I think best for people to resist figuring out diagnosis until a psychologist and psychiatrist (not camhs, not counsellors, not senco) get a lot of time with her. This is serious so I think your friend should go private because NHS is generally on its knees and probably not fit for purpose with a case like this.
ockham’s razor springs to mind, two competing hypotheses: girl has fundamental underlying neurological condition and/or hallmarks of a personality disorder which is relatively rare; or girl has contact with parent who is a proven abuser and manipulator who likely has every motivation to harm both the child and the child’s mother which is having a significant effect on her behaviour.

I would suggest the latter is most likely, I would also suggest that with someone considerably more vulnerable than his ex wife the form of his abuse could be more a lot more dire and vindictive. This relationship needs careful examination and exploration before getting too carried away with a diagnosis which could follow her for life.

I know friends who were abused (sexually, emotionally) by parents, they engaged in this sort of behaviour and worse, far worse. They generally turned out to be sweet but highly vulnerable adults.

The likelihood of her being ODD or narcissistic is statistically lower because she’s female and a child, however children of narcs can display the behaviours before they have the sort of moral reasoning needed to see how wrong it is.

MsBallen · 07/08/2022 01:53

Gagaandgag · 07/08/2022 01:33

How does she get on at school?
Just a note that our son was diagnosed by the paediatrician with ASD with demand avoidance because PDA isn’t officially recognised because it isn’t in the diagnostic manuals.

Your friend could contact for support

www.kids.org.uk/sendiass

Also she might need a sensory assessment
She could start by ordering this simple book and going through it herself (the mum)

shop.autismwestmidlands.org.uk/products/sensory-profile-toolkit-a-sensory-resource-for-parents-of-children-with-autism

Anyway this is all a lot for you to take in. Best of luck to you all!

Yes this is exactly like my Dn he was diagnosed asd by pediatrician early on and in more assessments he was also given a pda diagnosis although we received no information on this and was just told it is a new diagnosis. We have to learn everything ourselves.

stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 01:53

Thanks all

I think I'll show my friend this thread.

OP posts:
MsBallen · 07/08/2022 01:55

The only issue with people suggesting a private diagnosis, will the NHS recognize the private diagnosis especially if it's something that gets medication for? Because with adults it doesn't usually work that way and the NHS insist on their own diagnosis.

mathanxiety · 07/08/2022 01:55

This relationship needs careful examination and exploration before getting too carried away with a diagnosis which could follow her for life.

THIS ^

100%

Wondersocks · 07/08/2022 02:05

MsBallen · 07/08/2022 01:55

The only issue with people suggesting a private diagnosis, will the NHS recognize the private diagnosis especially if it's something that gets medication for? Because with adults it doesn't usually work that way and the NHS insist on their own diagnosis.

@MsBallen agreed it’s not ideal, but private route has two benefits as I see it - 1. child gets assessed by someone suitably qualified, it might not “count” as NHS diagnosis but given most private psychologists and psychiatrists also work for NHS it will hold some weight. You won’t get a mental health practitioner with 6 months training saying consultant x is full of it, she may have to restart the pathway but that should make it easier.

2 child is more likely to get the time and hopefully APPROPRIATE talk therapy needed for a situation like this. A private psychiatrist can diagnose and prescribe, it will make it far easier to make the case to a gp or whatever mental health person the child gets to see in 8 months time.

Suggest her mother does careful research and finds psychologist with experience in abuse/child abuse/childhood trauma just in case.

stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 02:09

I don't think she's in a position to go
Private sadly . Unless she can get her dad on board to pay ....

We're neighbours but also mates as we find ourselves in very similar circumstances. Both single , working , and not a pot to piss in .

I think it's
Gonna have to be nhs .....

OP posts:
BanditoShipman · 07/08/2022 02:11

We had a private diagnosis for our dd, Aspergers/PDA. The private psychologist then did the prescriptions, started with Risperidone, try to avoid that if at all possible, horrible stuff. Then ditched that and had fluoxetine for the underlying anxiety. Made a huge difference.

Things may well get worse with puberty/hormones too, dd has evening primrose tablets and you can really tell if she forgets to take for a week.

other thing is she’d just come back from a week with her father, she was probably under lots of stress ‘hiding’ her true thoughts/feelings and then they all came out when she was safe back with her mum.

it’s a hard road, best wishes to all three of you.

BanditoShipman · 07/08/2022 02:13

I think the diagnosing time took about 4 or 5 hours in separate appointments and cost £1000 plus. Private prescriptions were about £40 and follow up appointments about £150-£200. Just as an idea so you know the potential costs involved ☹️

stillvicarinatutu · 07/08/2022 02:15

I just really feel for them both . My neighbour is so lovely. She's been a godsend to me since I moved here , and we really get on . I like her dd - I really do . She's just incredibly hard work . I'm just trying to help before things go past the point of no return . Thank you for the replies . I'm going to pass all this info on.

OP posts:
CouldaShouldaWoulda071 · 07/08/2022 03:04

Yikes......my "Spidey sense" is saying it's something to do with the dad.....I wonder if your friend could limit dad's visitation for a while and see if that changes anything.....on the other hand, your friend probably actually needs the break......that child needs therapy.....and hypnosis (do they still hypnotize people?) to see if there is some kind of abuse......giving her a bunch of meds might help the behavior but I think finding a "cause" and treating that with therapy is needed...I sure hope your friend can get her in to see someone rather quickly.......must be agony to deal with that 24/7...... best wishes to all of you!!