If you tend to vote conservative can I ask a few questions - let’s keep it light and respectful!

[Holidayhavanas]

Full disclosure I tend to vote Labour, but I’m really interested to know if you tend to vote for the tories, what is your reasoning behind. the real shortage of qualified public sector workers for example teachers, social workers, police. A health service and education system on it’s knees. Police forces like Manchester and Met in special forces. I think that it’s symptomatic of years of underfunding. I work in the public sector and feel on a daily basis that the country is absolutely screwed. I assume most tory supporters would say it’s down to austerity but I feel it’s ideological cutting back on public funding. I’mgenuinely open to hear other views as I find it so depressing and just hope that it’s something I am missing. Let’s try and keep this respectful 😊

When Labour were in power they were always announcing that they had increased spending on the NHS or some other area of the public sector. Not that they'd made it better, just that they'd increased spending. I'd be much more impressed with a government saying "we have improved efficiency and productivity in the public sector and as a result, we can cut spending on it and reduce taxes". So much of the public sector is insanely bureaucratic and wasteful, local councils especially. The amount we pay in council tax compared to similar countries, for the shoddy level of service we get, is an absolute disgrace. There are so many people working there that if you put them on the spot and said "describe what you do in 5 seconds or you are fired", wouldn't even have a chance, they do absolutely nothing of any value to anyone but themselves and are absolute leaches on all those that work hard for a living.

So would you object to providing a little for Z, who through an accident if birth is never going to be employable, never mind live independently?

If by never going to be employable you mean they're disabled in a way that precludes them from working, then no, obviously I'm all for providing for disabled people. I've already mentioned I'm pro a social net.

But if we're talking about someone who just happened to be born in the wrong place/family, and will likely never be in the top 1%, then I am opposed to artificially making them rich by handing out cash. Especially as government doesn't actually have any money of its own, and would have to Rob X to provide for Z.

That said, I'm all for opportunities being provided via education. So government should aim to get every single school up to scratch, so that anyone who does want to pull themselves up by the bootstraps should have the resources necessary.

I think the problem in this country isn't Labour/Conservative...I think it's Murdoch/Dacre/Telegraph/Express. They've got a stranglehold on the press and seem to move further right all the time.
They pretty much ensured that Brexit/Johnson and his awful cabal are with us and no one will ever get elected without their backing.
To change the subject slightly, I don't understand why all of these awful leadership debates are being televised endlessly when almost none of us gets a say in the winner.

There isn't a stranglehold on the press. The Daily Mirror is one of the most popular newspapers, I think the third most popular after the Mail and Sun. The Guardian is the 2nd most popular newspaper website after the Mail. People buy the newspapers they want to buy, read the news sites they want to read. There's nothing to stop anyone starting a left leading newspaper or news site.

“Smaller state? how does that work when councils have rise council tx and close you local pool? You gonna build a new one with that £8 tax cut?”

i think the pp who favoured a smaller state would say that as long as she, personally, due to hard work / skills / earning well, could afford a house with a pool, or private gym membership, then it’s not her responsibility to provide swimming pools for other people.

one of the core beliefs of most Tory voters I know of is individualism. The idea that the individual and the individuals family should provide for their own needs by, basically, earning enough money to buy the educational / health / housing / leisure services that they need. This in turn is based on the idea of the meritocracy, that every one can and will succeed on their own merits (hard work, brains, skill, commitment, perseverance etc. No acknowledgment of the huge role sheer luck plays).

I have been reading this with so much interest and thanks for all the posts keeping it so respectful. So have the conservatives lowered taxes compared to a Labour Government? Sorry another dumb question I’m sure! I was having my babies when they were elected and stopped working for a bit. To me everyone seems not as cash rich as we did in the 00s but can be life stage (we didn’t have kids and mortgages then). My husband has his own business, I work part time in the public sector. We are comfortable and at the income bracket which most conservative voters on this thread are saying they would be worst off under Labour. However, naively I do want to vote for the greater good for future generations. How do you stop the cycle of deprivation (and the further high need for public resources) otherwise?

Another point that has concerned me on a personal level (which I knew about before but buried my head in the sand about) Is Labour and removing private schools charitable status. I intend to send my children to private secondary, I would send them state if there was a decent one locally that I didn’t have to attend church for three years to get them into! I wish a political party would sort out the secondary issue that seems to be in many areas of a choice of pray or pay. I love the story from a previous poster of the Lego son attending his local school and no one batting an eyelid.

I think the discussion on gender self
ID has been really helpful. Thank you for the posters for clearing that up.

I also want to add that I like the Nordic system of high tax, well funded services for everyone . But that is not the Labour government. We are obsessed with means testing in this country so I would be paying high taxes and not getting any services back.

That said, I'm all for opportunities being provided via education. So government should aim to get every single school up to scratch, so that anyone who does want to pull themselves up by the bootstraps should have the resources necessary.

I agree with this. Education is critical to allow kids to access higher income jobs if they want to.

There's also a level of aspiration lacking in some schools (and possibly homes). My nephew is a bright kid but went to an underperforming school where most of the kids couldn't speak basic English. He ended up with no GCSEs. When my parents asked him what he wanted to do when he was a teenager, his reply was that the government would give him money. He wasn't being lazy, it's just how things were in his area.

He's a really nice lad so no disrespect to him but it's a shame that he's scratching around for zero hours, minimum wage jobs. He could have had better paid career options if he'd been at a decent school and seen the merit of working hard for his exams.

You articulated my feeling/ views on this as well. Be interested to hear a different view on this for balance.

Sorry my previous post should have said @workwoes123

Op I had my babies under the labour government. They had been in power for over a decade and yet neither hospital close to me was safe or useable.
There was a chronicles shortage of midwife,the press were reporting horror stories about the NHS almost daily and many people in the NHS agree the changes Blair made has helped to ruin it.

I remember writing to my local MP about the shortage of midwives.

Re other funding, Blair started the ball rolling to remove legal help from everyday people. Through legal aid reform's.

They admitted they massively failed on child poverty.

I am also. Swing voter and my fingers were burned by Blair.
Then came the absolute horror show of Jeremy Corbyn, rabbi's writing in the press begging is not to vote for Labour,terryfing momentum gof into the heart of the party,no difference to the BNP at all.

Whata mess. I think coaltion government with experts in it and cross panels looking after the NHS and education are the way forward.

I think labour generally on school is absolutely abysmal.
Abysmal we need more types of school not less! Grammar has its place.

Lots of other type's as well.

I'm in Scotland so I vote for whoever has the best chance of beating the SNP.

Tory, Labour or Libdem.

I'm a floating voter but am a political melting pot, lean Left on some issues, lean right on others. I've voted at different times for all 3 main parties but voted Tory in the last GE as my father's side of the family are Jewish and we were very concerned about anti-Semitism.
In a new GE today, as much as it pains me, I'd probably spoil my ballot and not vote at all. I really value integrity and I see so little of it in politics.

I also agree that there comes a point when people feel they're paying enough tax. We pay six figures in tax (not as a stealth boast, only for context) and pay for private education and health care.

I believe that should be sufficient to contribute towards a decent standard of public services, if it's spent wisely which I suspect isn't always the case. It's not a lack of concern for people who can't work for whatever reason and have benefits as a safety net. That's as it should be.

I'm pragmatic enough to realise that it's very hard to have truly equal opportunities for all. You may have good schools but if kids don't have a quiet place to study, can't afford extra textbooks or are picking up chores as their parents both work, those kids are at a disadvantage.

But I also feel that capitalism can be motivating if people benefit financially from working hard. I was chatting to a friend from Asia where the kids work very hard at school as there's no benefits safety net. That's shocking but it's interesting to look at other countries where education is seen as a higher priority than in the U.K. These countries will also be competing with us for jobs as businesses become increasingly global with remote working.

Yes I am undecided although I do want this Government gone. Will Truss or Sunak’s cabinet fundamentally change from Boris Johnson’s? I had high hopes for Kier Starmer but he just isn’t cutting through (maybe media bias?) or as someone previously said standing for something.

This is really interesting, I think your point about China is a good one but also I think culturally Chinese families are so invested in their children and education.

“Education, Education, Education “ - This is what helped Tony Blair win the 97 election. Was it delivered though?

I don't recall ever reading a MN thread about individual people who've done well for themselves that has said it's because of privilege. Nor one saying that poverty is always structural. I have though seen a lot of threads discussing the very real existence of privilege and how it gives people an advantage, and threads discussing the equally real existence of structural poverty.
I find it ironic that you say later there is no nuance in discussion when this post of yours is completely lacking in it.

To me this suggests that there is something very wrong with how money is managed by our government (I don't mean this one specifically, I'm talking generally).
Surely taxes should go towards providing good enough public education and health care that no one feels they need to go private?

It's more that right-wing politicians and big media types tend to be the ones with the matey relationships and the 'scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' deals.

@Bodice

IDK if that would work here. My impression is that in Scandi countries even high earners are willing and happy to use publicly-provided services like public transport, education, healthcare (which are admittedly of a much higher quality). Whereas in the UK there is a real snob / status values about NOT using public services or not needing to. So owning and using a car rather than taking the bus. Sending your kids to private school rather than (even a good) local school. Accessing private healthcare rather than waiting for public. Using the swimming pool at your private health club rather than the perfectly good public pool etc. I don't think high earners in the UK would be happy to use the public version of these, even if the provision was of a higher standard than it currently is, because they attach status to the fact that they can and do access the private (exclusive) version.

TBH I don't think that the UK has a social-democratic culture in the same way, we clearly don't value equality as they do in Norway, Finland, Sweden etc. They are also much more culturally homogenous so it's much easier to get collective agreement on issues.

The media is powerful but it can go on the attack on a variety of people, they did not hold back on Johnson who is now going

That was a typical media storm which gathered pace

You miss my point. I think there is nuance - there are enormous structural reasons for poverty and many people are wealthy as a result of privilege. But not all the time and not exclusively. There is personal agency involved in both. My point is I do see the nuance but mumsnet does not appear to. My feeling- and many posters have agreed with me - is that mumsnet is polarised in the debate. We can't discuss getting people out of poverty is we don't discuss structural reasons AND personal responsibility. We can't discuss fair taxation on the wealthy if we don't acknowledge that this might disincentivise achievement and drive to achieve.

There is another thread running at the moment and nobody had challenged the first post which says 'Tories will all have health insurance so they don't care'. Classic, ignorant equation of being Tory with being rich and cruel.

Also because Tony Blair fucked the NHS

That’s categorically untrue and the statistics prove it. The last 12 years have fucked the NHS.

www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/high-performing-nhs

I used to support Labour(my family still do) but now I vote Tory- I have no faith in labour, they’re weak people pleasers & nobody currently is strong enough to run the country.