Does racism only work one way?

[Libre2]

twitter.com/MrNishKumar/status/1544372542097559554

Not sure what I think about this really, but I can see it causing absolute outrage if it were the other way round.

I don't think 'reverse racism is a thing' societally, because the point is it's all about power balance. An individual person of colour, or a group of people of colour, can be prejudiced against white people, but it isn't racism as their dislike/hatred basically.... has not impact on white people as a whole.

Such prejudice might have impact on an individual or small group in a very specific context - say, if there were a business with only two white people in it and everyone else treated them very badly, I expect those two employees would have a legal case for racial discrimination, as they were discriminated against because of their race.

But for society as a whole there is a reason Kumar's comment is acceptable, but not the other way around. His comment does not cause problems for white people in the way every racist comment, or even unintionally racist comments/action impacts on all PoC given that power is so centred on white people.

I mean, as a hypothetical, say you have a big group of PoC who really hate white people and go around saying they're inferior, they smell, they stupid and shouldn't be in charge. It could have a lot of members everywhere, but it wouldn't actually have any impact on the dominance of white power. But every white racist is capable of increasing negative impacts for PoC as a whole group.

I would expect its because the whole irish situation. Lots of history to look up there!

I'm aware of it, my partner has Irish heritage. But again, isn't that xenophobia? I just don't really get it because racism clearly has the word race in it. I guess it depends, because ethnicity is included, and I guess Irish could be an ethnic group rather than a race.

You do realise that young Asian girls were also groomed, exploited and raped in Rotherham and elsewhere? A fact often overlooked in the rush to use this as some kind of “gotcha”.

The problem with the grooming gangs was their attitude towards girls, not their attitude to one particular race.

'Racism' aimed at 'rich white men' results in... what?

So is it okay to be racist against white people if they're wealthy? So would it be okay to be racist against rich black people? I agree that having wealth and power allows a person to more easily shrug off racism or other attempts to oppress them, but surely that goes for everyone.

Plus pretty much everyone is from an 'historically oppressed' group, so that can't be the way we decide who matters.

Asian people have a lower conviction rate than their proportion of the population, e.g. the population is 8% Asian and of people convicted in 2021 only 6% were Asian. And in 2020 white people were ten times more likely to be prosecuted for possession of a weapon than Asian people.

Therefore I am not convinced by the idea that Asian people are more likely to stab you than white people. Also I couldn't find the stats on actual knife crime by ethnicity in 2021 so I am prepared to be proven wrong, but in general asian people are less likely to commit crime and less likely to be in possession of a weapon.

This is the true meaning of racism. It’s better to stick to facts even if you’ll be shouted down with strongly held personal beliefs and I say that as a mixed race person.

However, I don’t think the tweet was racist in this case.

I mean, as a hypothetical, say you have a big group of PoC who really hate white people and go around saying they're inferior, they smell, they stupid and shouldn't be in charge. It could have a lot of members everywhere, but it wouldn't actually have any impact on the dominance of white power. But every white racist is capable of increasing negative impacts for PoC as a whole group.

I don't follow this. I think because this idea of 'white power' doesn't ring true to me. We have racial equality under the law, and it is rightly considered disgusting to be racist towards black or Asian or minority ethnic people, as long as they're not white, when it seems to be more of a grey area. There are powerful PoC in every walk of life. The most marginalised groups in UK society are white working class boys, and the traveller community. What power do they have?

I actually think one of the great things about the UK is how we have undone racism in institutions and opened up opportunities for everyone. It's not perfect, but it's bloody amazing. I'm scared we'll get so caught up in US identity politics that we start believing we live in some kind of white supremacist regime. We really don't. The UK is one of the least racist countries in the world and that is something to be proud of. But we have to stick to the principle of saying racism is wrong. When we start this attempt to justify - well, it's okay if it's aimed at white people, or rich people, or people we don't like - then we degrade the principle itself. And that cannot be a good thing. Let's eradicate racism - not justify it!

I get why you feel that way, but white power being dominant does not = all white people are well off or that the worst off aren't white, nor does it mean there can't be many well off and successful PoC. But everything ultimately still works better for more white people than it does for PoC.

Yes, there is equality under the law and I used to believe that was enough, but now I realise there is still a huge gulf between that and how people are actually treated, and how seriously that negative treatment is taken. I used to think that talking about 'white supremacy' was OTT, but having taken time to listen more to PoC, and to get past my defensiveness, I think it is A Thing. It doesn't mean some Nazi-style 'Aryans Uber Alles, black people are scum' type deal, it means that white people are still valued significantly more by society than PoC, because the ruling hegemony is white-dominated, hence the existence of the BLM movement.

Opportunities are better, but I think you'd struggle to find many PoC who would say there are no barriers to success for them - they may not be overt anymore, but they are still there even if, much of the time, totally unintentional.

Thank you - this has explained things perfectly for me.

And yes, I agree, Nish Kumar is a twat- and a not very funny one at that.

Is this satire??

The comment was racist. It’s irrelevant that in this part of the world there are more white people in power than PoC in power when the comment made is about individuals. Particularly when the individual PoC in the comment clearly have a lot of power, and the racism is aimed at a whole group of people based on the colour of their skin.

Why wasn’t it enough to be happy that two Asian men got two of the most prominent positions in government in the first place without the need to make a dig about white people? The only answer is racism.

But everything ultimately still works better for more white people than it does for PoC

But that's not true. White working class boys are utterly marginalised and left to rot, for example. Class is way more of an indicator of things working better than race is. Things work better for you if your family have money, if your parents stay together, if both your parents are educated to degree level, etc. That holds true across all races.

it means that white people are still valued significantly more by society than PoC, because the ruling hegemony is white-dominated,

I think you would have to give specific examples of white people being more valued in society. Maybe this is true in some limited arenas? However, I'm equally certain that much has been done to overcome biases in things like employment and housing. Certainly in the media, we have gone from a dreadful underrepresentation of PoC to across the board representation in films, tv, ads, modelling, etc etc. When you say things like 'ruling hegemony' what does that actually mean? I know what it means in academic theory, but can you give some practical examples of how this works in real life?

White working class boys are utterly marginalised and left to rot, for example.

That’s absolutely true, and is a tragedy. But black working class boys are also marginalised and left to rot AND face racism on top.

“White privilege” doesn’t mean all white people are privileged. It simply means that of all the challenges white people may face, being discriminated against because of the colour of their skin isn’t one of them.

Traditionally, Irish people were considered a different race to English (by English and Americans anyway, not sure about everywhere else). If you read enough Victorian literature, you even see the same animalistic imagery and hair descriptions used across both Black and Irish characters. I suspect this is why - it's xenophobia now really, but tends to be rooted in older racism. It's just that views of what constitutes a different race have changed over time. Historically, one of the justifications for English abuse of the Irish people, was their suposedly inferior race.

Two specific examples of how black people are valued less by society:

• Rate of black deaths in custody: www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/11/black-deaths-in-police-custody-the-tip-of-an-iceberg-of-racist-treatment - the police feel able to be rougher with black people arrested, because they are less valued by society and society's narrative has decided black men, in particular, are strong and violent and criminal. The police who do this aren't necessarily outward racists, but they still have an idea that a black man can 'take more punishment' than a white man, and that his death doesn't matter as much
• Rate of black maternal deaths - www.openaccessgovernment.org/childbirth-black-women-uk/117437/ - again, associated with a narrative (and these narratives aren't conscious usually, but baked into society) that black women are strong and tough, but also 'mouthy' resulting in their pain and distress being ignored or seen as them complaining too much, so they don't get the medical attention a white woman would get. It's not that medical staff are raging racists, but they have, like all of us, absorbed these sorts of narratives.

By 'ruling hegemony' I mean that society is still effectively ruled by white people (specifically white men in fact) and the fact there may be some PoC or women of colour in the upper echelons doesn't actually make that less so, as they've usually got there but running with the party line of the white men, as they wouldn't have been allowed that far if they didn't - another reason we're not really equal.

This isn't some conspiracy, white men haven't got together and said 'Black people and women are inferior, we must rule over them!' nor do those in power literally think that, it's the result of hundreds of years of white male rule and while those in power I think genuinely believe they are doing things fairly for all, they tend to fall back into just reinforcing values biased against anyone not like them because 'that's how it's always been done' and it seems fair to them (because they and their mates, and that includes in terms of class, aren't affected negatively by them) thus get cagey about pushback or being told they're not as fair as they think.

@Tillsforthrills exactly facts are facts , there is obviously a bigger picture but that wasn't what the OP asked

@LadyKenya no I don't need to as I am aware and As I haven't mentioned which countries you have no idea of the background either
Also how long can you blame something from years ago when do the people in charge here and now take responsibility for what is going on at this moment

Historically, one of the justifications for English abuse of the Irish people, was their suposedly inferior race.

Thank you, that makes sense.

@daisyjgrey what im talking about is uk law and the people who beat him up were charged with a racially motivated crime and it will be in the stats as one as well
So im not the one who doesn't understand what racism is and also able to understand that anyone can be racist no matter what colour they are

@worriedatthistime Ok, you crack on believing that white people, particularly white men are oppressed 👍

@daisyjgrey I nevee said they were oppressed ? You can't just make up what I said because you were wrong

@Sbqprules well law disagrees with you so yes you can be racist
Read what it means your talking about something else not racism

The mistake people make is to take the school results of working class white boys and not follow through to the fact black women are are more likely to be highly qualified but are less likely to do well in the job market than those poorly qualified white boys.
www.tuc.org.uk/research-analysis/reports/bme-women-and-work