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Ukraine Invasion: Part 28

1000 replies

MagicFox · 24/06/2022 11:38

Thread 28 begins, thanks all for the company and resources

OP posts:
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74
ScrollingLeaves · 04/07/2022 21:28

@notimagain · Today 20:02
Is the 10,000 cut because the army has been understrength for years, so it is just pragmatic to change the manning figure to the number of soldiers there actually are?

Everything I’ve read states it is a genuine cut, been in the pipeline for some months.

Most frequently justified by “because cyber, colour of woo smart technologies,” armies need to be a different shape these days.

Wonder if anybody has told the Ukrainian or Russian PBI (I’ll let people look that one up) they are surplus to requirements in modern wars.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british-army-to-be-cut-by-10000-troops/

I heard Liz Truss being interviewed on the radio last week, refusing to acknowledge this cut by repeatedly asserting how much they were doing with cyber etc, when, as you say, the invasion of Ukraine has shown how necessary soldiers still are.

MissConductUS · 04/07/2022 21:47

By comparison, the US Army has 481,000 active duty soldiers and officers, with over half a million personnel in the National Guard and Army Reserves. That's considered adequate, but only just.

It was the National Guard that did the training of the Ukrainian Army after 2014. There were stories in the news after the war started about NG troops getting calls on their mobile phones from UA troops they had trained with questions about operating the Javelin missile that they were a bit fuzzy on.

CasualObserverUK · 04/07/2022 23:59

Another ammo depot burning

Twitter Link - Verified European Media account

MissConductUS · 05/07/2022 00:46

Interesting article in the WSJ today about military lessons learned from the war in Ukraine. It includes the views of General Patrick Sanders, the BA Chief of Staff. I hope they don't cancel my subscription for posting these.

www.wsj.com/articles/lessons-of-russias-war-in-ukraine-you-cant-hide-and-weapons-stockpiles-are-essential-11656927182?mod=hp_lead_pos6

Lessons of Russia’s War in Ukraine: You Can’t Hide and Weapons Stockpiles Are Essential - U.S., its allies study Europe’s biggest conflict in decades; ‘You can’t cyber your way across a river’

BRUSSELS—Western governments are bracing for a protracted conflict with Russia over Ukraine, and military leaders are racing to distill lessons from the opening months of Europe’s largest land war in almost eight decades.

President Biden and North Atlantic Treaty Organization Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg last week pledged to support Ukrainian forces for as long as it takes for Kyiv to prevail. How long that means will depend in large part on how fighting plays out, and both sides are trying to adapt.

Defense planners are studying weapons, tactics, logistics and other factors for insights that can give them an edge on the current battlefield—and in future conflicts.

“We’ve been watching the war in Ukraine closely, and we are already learning and adapting,” Gen. Patrick Sanders, the new chief of Britain’s general staff, said in a recent speech. “We will rethink how we fight.”

The conflict is drawing close attention—and has become something of a laboratory for professional soldiers—not just because it is proving so deadly to fighters and civilians, or because it is the first big war to play out in near-real-time on social media.

The war in Ukraine is the first in decades involving large, fairly modern and roughly evenly matched forces. Others over recent decades have either pitted cutting-edge forces against less modern foes, as in the two Gulf wars and Afghanistan, or were on a smaller scale.

Some lessons aren’t all that new, such as the value of strong leadership and resilient supply lines. Others are: The modern battlefield has no hiding places and no boundaries. Drones, electronic surveillance and space-based observation make concealment harder than even a few years ago.

Gen. Sanders said Russia’s invasion shows that “if you want to avert conflict, you better be prepared to fight.” Military thinkers say it is also a wake-up call for citizens of the West who have come to see war as something distant and high-tech, executed with surgical precision.

Instead, the fighting in Ukraine has been a devastating war of attrition, waged with heavy artillery, evoking memories of fighting in the two world wars.

“Maybe modern war isn’t as modern as people thought,” said Billy Fabian, a former U.S. Defense Department analyst and Army infantry officer, now a senior manager at Govini, a company that harnesses high technology for decision-making at clients including the Pentagon.

“Mass offensive warfare is difficult and awful, with tremendous losses,” he said.

At NATO’s annual summit last week, officials touted the value of trans-Atlantic cooperation in waging war. Alliance officials say it became evident in 2011, when NATO intervened in Libya’s civil war and European forces had to depend on U.S. munitions due to low stocks.

In the current conflict, cooperation ranges from weapons supplies to sanctions on Russia. The unity hasn’t defeated the Russians, but it has multiplied the
Some NATO members are upgrading their military capabilities and increasing defense budgets as Russia’s war in Ukraine continues. Analysts say fighter jets and air defense systems are in demand, but some weapons could take years to be delivered.

Relentless bombardments from both sides have made clear the importance of ready stocks of weapons and munitions. Russia’s enormous quantities have given it a battlefield advantage lately, but some open-source intelligence analysts suggest that Moscow might now be running low on certain ammunition.

Ukraine’s Western allies, meanwhile, are having to rethink military-industrial plans after shipping to Kyiv large numbers of weapons and munitions that planners had assumed their own forces would use some day.

“A lesson of Ukraine is we need more insights and transparency in stockpiles,” said a senior NATO official. “What you can expend in days or hours takes weeks to resupply and years to build.”

Both sides are using drones to locate and attack targets, and Ukrainians have exploited light, mobile weapons supplied by Western allies to hit bigger, better-armed Russian targets. But most of the damage being inflicted on both armies—and on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure—is from missiles, rockets and bombs that have been used for years.

“What we’re seeing is conventional mechanized war with modern characteristics,” said Mr. Fabian.

Ukrainians protected their capital, Kyiv, and other cities from Russian tanks and armored vehicles in the war’s opening weeks by deftly employing portable rocket launchers provided by Western allies.

While some observers said the rout foretold the death of the tank, others said what it really showed was the need for well-coordinated maneuvers involving a variety of troops and weapons, known as combined-arms tactics.

“We will double-down on combined arms maneuver, especially in the deep battle,” said Britain’s Gen. Sanders. “Success will be determined by combined arms and multi-domain competence. And mass.”

‘‘Success will be determined by combined arms and multi-domain competence. And mass.

— Gen. Patrick Sanders, chief of Britain’s general staff

He said that while the digital transformation of warfare is vital, “to put it bluntly, you can’t cyber your way across a river. No single platform, capability, or tactic will unlock the problem.”

Tacticians say new approaches could include greater use of small, inexpensive systems, such as Turkey’s Bayraktar TB2, the U.S.’s Switchblade drones and NLAW mobile rockets from Britain.

With electronic surveillance now pervasive, planners are seeking ways to operate without emitting radio signals. Some reconnaissance drones are sent on preset missions and return to base carrying intelligence, rather than transmitting it.

Others are sent on preset attack missions. Low-tech solutions from earlier eras—like using runners during urban warfare—are also getting a fresh look.

Likely detection means that systems such as the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, or Himars, which the U.S. is supplying Ukraine, are increasingly valuable. They can launch attacks and relocate before detection, or shoot-and-scoot in military parlance.

The next step is better integrating these emerging approaches, and doing it across traditional divisions of military services because old distinctions between land, naval and air war are disappearing. In a paper for the U.S. National Defense University publication Joint Forces Quarterly in 2018, two senior officers proposed an integrated approach dubbed multidomain battle.

In it, Army Gen. David G. Perkins and Air Force Gen. James M. Holmes, both since retired, proposed their multidomain approach to overcome divisions between the Army, Navy and other services and “build the future force as a converged and integrated solution.”

Other lessons build on long experience. Ukrainian forces have been outgunned and outnumbered, but they have fought fiercely to protect their homeland and so have held out far longer and more successfully than many Western military officials predicted they could in February.

“The will to fight is decisive,” said NATO’s Mr. Stoltenberg. He cited not just “the commitment of Ukrainian troops, but also of the Ukrainian people to defend their own country.”

Eight years of training by NATO and its members and new command structures that empowered lower-rank troops have also made a big difference, Ukrainian soldiers and defense officials have said.

On the other hand, a line from the Cold War used in reference to the Soviet Union’s vast number of unsophisticated weapons still rings true: Quantity is a quality in itself.

Russia’s supplies of artillery pieces and shells have allowed Moscow to gain ground in eastern Ukraine over recent weeks, even as troops have shown signs of poor morale and discipline.

“Even an incompetent army can still destroy your country,” said Jamie Shea, a retired senior NATO official. “An army may not be very motivated, but the artillery certainly is.”

ScrollingLeaves · 05/07/2022 01:07

@CasualObserverUK Yesterday 23:59
Another ammo depot burning

Twitter Link - Verified European Media account

That is good news after the bad news about Russia taking possession of Luhansk today.

And it’s good news that the ammo depot is in Donetsk where the Russians will probably go next.

ScrollingLeaves · 05/07/2022 01:23

@MissConductUS uctUS · Today 00:46

Thank you for that article. These lines stay in my mind:
From Patrick Sanders
^He said that while the digital transformation of warfare is vital, “to put it bluntly, you can’t cyber your way across a river. No single platform, capability, or tactic will unlock the problem.”

and, (my bold)

On the other hand, a line from the Cold War used in reference to the Soviet Union’s vast number of unsophisticated weapons still rings true: Quantity is a quality in itself

Russia’s supplies of artillery pieces and shells have allowed Moscow to gain ground in eastern Ukraine over recent weeks, even as troops have shown signs of poor morale and discipline.

“Even an incompetent army can still destroy your country,” said Jamie Shea, a retired senior NATO official. “An army may not be very motivated, but the artillery certainly is.”

That last point is very worrying in relation to Ukraine. Tonight on the news a someone speaking from Ukrainesaid they can’t win without enough weapons and not always too late: that if they’d had what they have now at the start of the invasion they’d have driven the Russians out.

MagicFox · 05/07/2022 07:07

It is absolutely mad that we are cutting the army at at a time when a massive land war has been shown to be NOT a thing of the past. Our army could fit into old Trafford and we need, I think, to increase our defence spending beyond what Ben Wallace has proposed. What if a republican president gets in in the US and support to Europe is withdrawn? How would we fight? How would we replenish our stocks? How will be be able to stand up to a larger Russian military in a few years?

Thanks for posting that article @MissConductUS

OP posts:
notimagain · 05/07/2022 07:25

@MissConductUS

Thank you for that article...Whilst Sanders, as Chief of the General Staff (CGS) will have his own agenda I think he's the first time I've heard a CGS be so pointed in his comments about the size of the British Army whilst (newly) in post. Most CGSs have waited until retirement and are banking their pension before expressing an opinion that might run counter to the Treasury line of thought.

What is written in the piece ties in pretty much 100% with the opinions I've been hearing/reading elsewhere...Certainly now that the initial euphoria triggered by the videos over things like NLAW and Javelin strikes on Russian armour has died down a lot of people are indeed thinking...

“Maybe modern war isn’t as modern as people thought,”

Yep....

notimagain · 05/07/2022 08:06

Sorry but one last bit of drift away from the thread subject..

Our army could fit into old Trafford and we need, I think, to increase our defence spending beyond what Ben Wallace has proposed.

Some are of the opinion that the current/newly planned size of the army is only sensible if the intention is to only use it as pretty much a home defence force, and never to deploy overseas in significant numbers and certainly not for long periods of time.

So no large scale permanent deployments forwards into Europe/elsewhere, with equipment such as Main Battle tanks to hand, to help provide forward defence and deterrence against Russian aggression (cf. the Cold War and the British Army on the Rhine).

How that squares with some of the bold statements about the UK providing military support for the Baltic States and NATO members of Eastern Europe you'll have to ask the politicians.

MagicFox · 05/07/2022 08:41

Exactly @notimagain! Imagine using the phrase "our 1937 moment" against this backdrop?!

OP posts:
Ijsbear · 05/07/2022 10:40

Key Takeaways

Russian leadership may be setting conditions for an operational pause following the seizure of Lysychansk and the Luhansk Oblast boundary.

Russian forces are consolidating territorial and administrative control over Severodonetsk and Lysychansk.

Russian forces continued offensive operations to the east of Bakhmut to prepare for advances on Bakhmut and Siversk.

Russian forces continued limited and unsuccessful assaults north of Kharkiv City.

Ukrainian partisan activity is targeting Russian railway lines around Melitopol and Tokmak.

Russian leadership may be setting conditions for the conscription of Ukrainian citizens living in occupied territories.

+++

⚒ Shmyhal called the amount of damage that Russia caused to the infrastructure of Ukraine
The Prime Minister said that the amount of damage caused by Russia to Ukraine's infrastructure as a result of the invasion already exceeds $100 billion.

❗️Estonian President Alar Karis is against a complete rupture of relations between the West and Russia

⌛️ Germans need to prepare for a long economic crisis – German Chancellor Olaf Scholz
The difficult economic situation was caused by the consequences of the coronavirus pandemic and the war in Ukraine. Scholz stressed that the situation will not change in the near future.

🤝 The governments of Scotland and Wales, which are part of the UK, have allocated 65 and 35 million pounds, respectively, to increase defense support for Ukraine (about $121 million in total)

📌 Putin's war in Ukraine calls into question the EU's decisive vote to include gas in the EU's so-called green taxonomy, writes Bloomberg
Previously, experts had been confident that the bill would pass, but the Russian military invasion and fueling of the energy crisis turned this process upside down.
Ukrainian diplomats are urging European lawmakers to reject the proposal as it would benefit the Russian Federation and increase Europe's dependence on Russian gas.

⚡️ Foreign Ministers of Finland and Sweden signed protocols on joining NATO

🚁 The Slovak TV channel Noviny Plus published a video of the transportation of two Mi-17 helicopters on auto trails towards the border with Ukraine
The channel reports that Slovakia is transferring up to 10 helicopters to Ukraine.

🔎 Putin's entourage has been in quarantine for about two years with constant isolation and medical tests
According to BBC sources

+++

UkraineNOW

⚡️Investigation: Satellite images show Russia regularly exporting Ukrainian grain to Turkey via Crimea.

⚡️NATO appoints new Supreme Allied Commander in Europe.
U.S. Army General Christopher Cavoli has taken over as NATO's new supreme allied commander in Europe. Cavoli - who speaks Russian and has a master’s degree from Yale in Russian studies - replaced General Tod Wolters of the U.S. Air Force who had been in post since 2019.

⚡️Volker: US and its allies looking for ways to accelerate weapons transfer to Ukraine.

⚡️SBU: Aid to current lawmaker uncovered as FSB agent.
According to the Security Services of Ukraine (SBU), the unnamed man was paid anywhere between $1,500 to $4,000 dollars to collect information about Ukraine’s international cooperation, domestic politics, border policies w

⚡️Japan expands sanctions against Russia, Belarus, bans import of gold from Russia.

TheABC · 05/07/2022 10:41

Being cynical, I am waiting for Johnson to announce an increase in defence spending to deflect from the next emerging scandal.

I watched Raab squirm on TV this morning and wondered why they are so bad at PR crisis management - or for that matter, keeping track of the lies. They've had enough practice.

ScrollingLeaves · 05/07/2022 10:55

From Ijsbear’s takeaways

“⚡️Investigation: Satellite images show Russia regularly exporting Ukrainian grain to Turkey via Crimea.”

Although Turkish customs have just impounded a Russian boat filled with Ukrainian grain, say they will investigate, and perhaps will on this occasion, no doubt there is a huge black market in grain with lots of Turkish and Russian middle men getting rich.

Ijsbear · 05/07/2022 11:02

bother, forgot these

Ukraine Invasion: Part 28
Ukraine Invasion: Part 28
Ukraine Invasion: Part 28
ScrollingLeaves · 05/07/2022 11:03

Thank you Ijsbear for your takeaways today,
and also for posting the Walter’s Report with your Kherson guests yesterday. I have started listening. There is so much happening which the news we see here cannot inform us about. I cannot imagine what it must be like to be in your guests’ position . Every moment, awake or asleep, one part of their mind must be back in Ukraine with flashbacks and worries constantly interrupting their peace.

Hagrod · 05/07/2022 14:03

Interesting to see the African-American female reaction to Zelenskyy's request for $750 billion recovery fund:

www.lipstickalley.com/threads/zelenskyy-asks-for-750-billion-to-rebuild-ukraine-after-war-in-the-new-ukraine-recovery-conference-in-switzerland-attended-by-40-countries.4948335/

They seem to think he's up to no good, I just don't get why 😫

ScrollingLeaves · 05/07/2022 14:31

@Hagrod · Today 14:03
Interesting to see the African-American female reaction to Zelenskyy's request for $750 billion recovery fund:

www.lipstickalley.com/threads/zelenskyy-asks-for-750-billion-to-rebuild-ukraine-after-war-in-the-new-ukraine-recovery-conference-in-switzerland-attended-by-40-countries.4948335/

They seem to think he's up to no good, I just don't get why😫

I can understand their point of view given the US is not part of Europe, and this particular group of people historically did not luxuriate in having their lives rebuilt after the suffering inflicted on them; nor was what was owed to them for their stolen labour ever repaid.

The scenes of black students not being allowed on the evacuation trains would have influenced this view too. Personally I thought at the time that this might partly have been that the students were seen as competing for places with mothers with children, and old people, and there were quite a few young men among the students. - though of course they needed to escape too.

I do think some commentators are out of touch though saying, “ Just give them to Russia.” Americans don’t see much about the rest of the world on TV usually - or not when I last watched.

What did you mean though in your last sentence? Do you think Zelensky is up to no good?

Ijsbear · 05/07/2022 14:42

▪️ Xi Jinping declined Putin's invitation to visit Russia due to the COVID-19 pandemic in China, – Japanese newspaper Yomiuri.

if this is true it's a big diplomatic thing

MagicFox · 05/07/2022 14:53

I hope so @Ijsbear - he did travel (I think to Hong Kong) and did a putin-style long table speech so the covid thing is A Thing. I really hope it's a political choice rather than solely cos of covid

OP posts:
MagicFox · 05/07/2022 15:26

Article that develops what @notimagain was saying earlier: warontherocks.com/2022/07/a-modern-day-frederick-the-great-the-end-of-short-sharp-wars/

OP posts:
Hagrod · 05/07/2022 15:36

ScrollingLeaves · 05/07/2022 14:31

@Hagrod · Today 14:03
Interesting to see the African-American female reaction to Zelenskyy's request for $750 billion recovery fund:

www.lipstickalley.com/threads/zelenskyy-asks-for-750-billion-to-rebuild-ukraine-after-war-in-the-new-ukraine-recovery-conference-in-switzerland-attended-by-40-countries.4948335/

They seem to think he's up to no good, I just don't get why😫

I can understand their point of view given the US is not part of Europe, and this particular group of people historically did not luxuriate in having their lives rebuilt after the suffering inflicted on them; nor was what was owed to them for their stolen labour ever repaid.

The scenes of black students not being allowed on the evacuation trains would have influenced this view too. Personally I thought at the time that this might partly have been that the students were seen as competing for places with mothers with children, and old people, and there were quite a few young men among the students. - though of course they needed to escape too.

I do think some commentators are out of touch though saying, “ Just give them to Russia.” Americans don’t see much about the rest of the world on TV usually - or not when I last watched.

What did you mean though in your last sentence? Do you think Zelensky is up to no good?

Oh no, I could never think Zelenskyy would be up to anything nefarious - he's an angel! He will save us all. I am quite certain of it. If he wants one hundred trillion we should give it to him...even if it means famine for the givers (ie. us). He is so worth it and so is Ukraine. It's got some lovely fields.

PerkingFaintly · 05/07/2022 15:47

Grin Well that ^ poster was informative and convincing. I now definitely believe... whatever it is they wanted me to believe...

If only I knew what that was.

MagicFox · 05/07/2022 16:22

NATO Must Re-Learn Deterrence
The Western reaction to the current crisis in Ukraine shows that we will have to revive the concept of deterrence, and quickly.

cepa.org/nato-must-re-learn-deterrence/

OP posts:
MagicFox · 05/07/2022 17:06

Er, wtf is this?!

Iran, Russia, China To Run War Drills in Latin America

freebeacon.com/national-security/iran-russia-china-to-run-war-drills-in-latin-america/

OP posts:
LoveLarry · 05/07/2022 17:13

Hagrod · 05/07/2022 14:03

Interesting to see the African-American female reaction to Zelenskyy's request for $750 billion recovery fund:

www.lipstickalley.com/threads/zelenskyy-asks-for-750-billion-to-rebuild-ukraine-after-war-in-the-new-ukraine-recovery-conference-in-switzerland-attended-by-40-countries.4948335/

They seem to think he's up to no good, I just don't get why 😫

They sound lovely. And racist. And thick

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