Middle class indicators 2022 part 2

[Pullandpush]

Current thread has 1000 posts so restarting.. Was asked at the end of the last thread what I would identify as & I am solidly working class due to working hard to pay our mortgage, kids in state school & having a very modest lifestyle.

I don’t think you quite understand how much lawyers can earn.😂

@CompoundV I am a lawyer

You defined UMC I consider UMC to be very financially comfortable all round, second properties whether renting or for leisure, kids in private school, multiple holidays a year, no money worries at all, money that enables them to pursue any hobbies they want etc

You see the lawyers I know can easily afford this.

@CompoundV i hope to be in that position one day for sure. I plan to send dc to private school (hopefully) when we have them. We holiday 3/4 times a year but I wouldn't say we don't have any money worries at all. We invest much more than we save so sometimes that does stress me out as don't have as much cash readily available. We definitely can't afford a second property at this point!

I think it depends on ages and background too. DH and I are late 20s so still have time to climb the career ladders. Hope to have DC in 4/5 years.

I hope you are in the position you want to be in too and I hope it brings you as much satisfaction as you seem to think it will.

I think shoes off is a relatively recent rule, little to do with class. The older generations didn’t shower as frequently so requiring your guests to take off their shoes risked the releasing of odours that would have everyone feeling a bit queasy and a bit regretful.
Shoes off or on, I don’t care for downstairs but to go up someone’s (pale) carpeted stairs in your shoes just shows a lack of manners and consideration for someone’s home - I admit I’d be quite shocked for someone to do it. My parent’s generation don’t willingly do shoes off - my kids generation never have to be asked - for them it’s just not done and my generation are a mixed bag, some would clearly rather not but know to wear presentable socks and have fresh feet when visiting - just in case the host insists - which is becoming increasingly the case.

@rubbishatballet I think ‘reasonably clear’ is a massive overstatement and sounds a little
bit like you mean that you would make a special exception for a person who looked Asian enough to have a thing about taking their shoes off. 🤨 Vast swathes of the world, including many European countries, expect shoes to be removed indoors. We live in a European country where our children aren’t even allowed to wear outdoor shoes in school—they have to take off their shoes and put on special indoor slippers when they arrive. This is a matter of basic politeness. Our kids remove shoes when they go to someone else’s house now because it has been drilled into them by the wider culture that removing shoes is a respectful gesture, not because they’re worried about getting dirt on Hyacinth Bucket’s carpet. It certainly would not be ‘reasonably clear’ that they have an ‘approved’ reason for shoe removal by looking at them or listening to their accent.

I actually would suggest that cluckiness about shoe removal is aspirational LMC because it shows squeamishness with something a person sees as ‘dirty’ or ‘smelly’—namely feet—which is the same hygiene obsession, just in a different guise. It also shows they haven’t had enough exposure to the rest of the world to know that keeping shoes on is a peculiarly British habit that is seen as really rude by vast swathes of the rest of the world.

@CompoundV unsure of the reason for the sarcastic tone but thanks I guess.

In our circle, shoes on or off is a matter of ‘as you like’. If you feel more comfortable keeping them on, great. The cleaner will get the dirt. If you feel more comfortable taking them off, great. Please make yourself at home.

Some visitors offer to take their shoes off but I never let them as it does seem a bit precious.

I have indoor shoes and slippers. Nothing to do with keeping our floor clean (they're practical dark colour or wooden floors).

No coats in bedrooms came from my mother and I suspect it was hygiene related 🤔

What’s wrong with having respect and taking care of other people’s things, like Hyacinth’s carpet? Is that not what basic manners is about - respect for other people and the things that are important to them. Surely that’s a minimum requirement not to look down your nose at someone who has saved hard to buy an expensive carpet and wants to get many years of use by looking after it properly. I would have thought decent manners were a given regardless of class.

@Blaggertyjibbet 'reasonably clear' as in generally it's likely you would have some prior knowledge of a guest?

And this isn't about discomfort with the shoes on/off scenario, each to their own and all that. It's about which scenario you would feel more comfortable with, ie which is most likely to be your own preference and what you're used to. And I maintain that shoes on/off in the house is a (British) class indicator.

It's^^ interesting how prickly some posters are getting about this issue!

I think there is something in it being a class indicator, but I would go against the grain and say that it's upper working class/lower middle class to insist people remove their shoes to protect a fluffy carpet.

I would offer to, or happily comply out of politeness, but in reality (well one particular case) I'm wondering why they have a pure white carpet in a family room.

Yes I always wonder where shoes-on people live - I’ve seen people urinating in the street in my town and I’m not walking that into my house, regardless of how good our cleaner is!

At my quite good old school, which I attended in the 60s and early 70s, we had “house shoes” which we changed on entering and leaving the school building.

@Giggorata this is a good idea to ensure dirt isn't being traipsed through the house. We always offer slippers to guests but shoes on the carpet is just a no

We had outdoor shoes and indoor shoes in my school in the 80's too.

@CompoundV Sorry, when I said Hyacinth’s carpet it was meant as a description of someone only taking shoes off grudgingly and with no small degree of judgment (seeing the requester as Hyacinth Bucket).

Yes I think you are right, and part of that is also because the city is populated with highly mobile professionals (people like bankers who have been living in Hong Kong for the past decade) who have spent at least some time in shoes off cultures. Many continue the practice when they return to the UK.

Totally agree with this point & surprised it hasn't been mentioned earlier.
London has a different type of middle/upper class & they are the ones with the serious money & lifestyles.
As @Blaggertyjibbet has pointed out these are part of a global set who have more than likely lived in Hong Kong, Singapore, Dubai, Shanghai, Abu Dhabi, the U. S etc.. Many Russians, Eastern Europeans, Asians, Africans, Australians & Americans with serious cultural & financial capital & their own set of indicators.. To me it's fascinating!
As @Blaggertyjibbet also said many of these types work in the financial sector.

Yes, exactly. Every single (white British) shoes-off household we know (including ours) has an expatriate background in either childhood or adulthood or both. Some of the smartest people we know are shoes-off because daddy grew up in Singapore or because their family did a 5 year stint in Shanghai. They are not WC people and their families have been professionals for several generations.

@Blaggertyjibbet what would you class them as? The London global set as in a league of their own & come from every continent!

I'm reminded of the other thread and a couple of uses of 'smart'. My great grandmother used to use that term and I find it terribly dated and only used in old novels 'U' speak.

This is our tribe—DH is 2nd and I am 3rd generation ‘mobile professional’. Our parents and even grandparents have lived all over the world and we are now on a stint abroad ourselves. I don’t know what I’d call us, but amongst our tribe, shoes-off is the norm, not the exception!

In their gardens: No plastic playhouses (wooden, only), no trampoline, no fake grass.