Middle class indicators 2022 part 2

[Pullandpush]

Current thread has 1000 posts so restarting.. Was asked at the end of the last thread what I would identify as & I am solidly working class due to working hard to pay our mortgage, kids in state school & having a very modest lifestyle.

Given it’s the higher earners taxes paying for it there’s really no grounds to criticize them for using it.

I think that depends on age. I dont really know anyone age 30-35 who owns second properties, but all the lawyers I know have families that do and therefore eventually I assume this will pass on to them. But I think the big question here is which generation are we talking about. Most lawyers who are 35 now will be able to afford a second property age 50, but I assume that no teacher, academic, civil servant who i currently 35 will do so by 50. In London, things have really really changed over the last decade and a half i.e. when government put a lot of people of wage freezes

The civil service put off Oxbridge grads when they moved to blind recruitment!

This is exactly my point, money is the main indicator now

@Chaoslatte they put off Oxbridge/LsE/Imperial/UCL graduates when they've come to pay half/third of what the city pays in a city where such graduates except a nice lifestyle and a house that costs 1.2mil. My younger relatives are very happy to work for the civil service a external consultants getting paid 150k working with civil servants on 50k.

I think lawyers could be MMC as although very high earning, that doesn't necessarily make them UMC. You might be a MMC lawyer if you're newly arrived in the MC but UMC if you are successive generations of professional with relative wealth and education going back 100 years or so?

I still don't think that in this country a ballpark figure for income necessarily determines your class, or flying business/first class on planes! As I've said previously being a vicar is one of the most long-term accepted professions (check Jane Austen for confirmation of this!) and yet they are paid a pittance (and less and less living in vast des res vicarages nowadays!)

@hilblaudh878 interesting perspective. I am an Oxbridge grad myself and work in the public sector although not the actual civil service and it’s really mainly the recruitment process that puts me off as the salaries aren’t awful once you work your way up a bit. I’m not on six figures but I am on over double the national average without the stress/long hours that come with banking, city law, consulting etc. I was targeted by consulting recruiters when graduating but was put off when I was chatting to a rare female interviewer who told me she barely got to spend any time with her young son I have a enough nice lifestyle as it is - foreign holidays, nice house, cleaner, opera etc without needing to make those sacrifices. The sacrifice I made instead was to live in the Home Counties (25 mins train to central London terminus) instead of z1-3 and can probably only afford private schooling if we only have one child.

Although that poster won't suffer the discrimination or prejudice that a WC person would.

Being educated, speaking nicely, and with confidence, will still confer a level of status that will improve someone's life chances.

@LouisCatorze I agree with this.

I think the thing with vicars is that this country used to be much, much more religious than it is now. As PPs have said, some jobs are seen as MC because of the value ascribed to them. Now that less than half of the country identify as Christian, those who aren't done value church religious leaders as much. Also, as church attendance has waned, tithes and offerings have also reduced hugely, which means churches can struggle to pay the vicars. It's a bit different for CoE as it's the church of the state but you see my point.

Overall, I do agree vicarage are MC by virtue of their jobs and the history behind it, I just feel their roles are much less valued in todays society.

I say all of this as a devout Christian who massively values my religious leaders!

@sunja yes you definitely have a point about vicars having declined in prestige status in recent decades. However, these days you often find people retraining as clerics in middle age (having previously had more lucrative but perhaps less food-for-the-soul making roles). Think of Richard Cole for example, although of course being a popstar isn't your quintessentially MC job! And our friend the vicar had a very high-earning and successful career (he was at the top of his game) before he gave it all up for God.

Vicars have an unusual status by virtue of the fact that they are part of the church. By it's not exactly a mainstream occupation, is it? I mean, the quirks that determine a vicar's social status can't be extrapolated to the general population.

@Octomore I think thats definitely true and very gendered. so my partner is LMC and doesnt earn the min 100k and people definitely look down on him much more than on me. We both earn the same but in different fields but I think for a woman to not earn over 100k is more acceptable than for a man. so he definitely gets people looking down on him for being LMC and not earning over 100k. People are much more sympathetic to myself because I do sound posh and do all the 'right' things but even then I quickly get the ah thats nice and cant join in because of the financial differential

I still don't think that in this country a ballpark figure for income necessarily determines your class, or flying business/first class on planes! As I've said previously being a vicar is one of the most long-term accepted professions (check Jane Austen for confirmation of this!) and yet they are paid a pittance (and less and less living in vast des res vicarages nowadays!)

I said this on the previous thread and stand by it:

More comfortable if a guest automatically takes their shoes off = working/lower middle class.

More comfortable if a guest automatically keeps their shoes on = middle/upper middle/upper class.

It's the only guide you need! (Both scenarios assuming normal levels of 'outside dirt' and no wet mud on shoes..).

@Chaoslatte yes, I think the picture is very different outside London. Interestingly lots of my friends have moved out of London because they didn't earn six-figure salaries despite having what used to be defined as mc jobs e.g. in publishing or the arts.

So middle class to have this obsession with class at all! Why is this even a topic? We are all human beings, why do we need to be “classified” into class?? What is the benefit?

More comfortable if a guest automatically takes their shoes off = working/lower middle class.

More comfortable if a guest automatically keeps their shoes on = middle/upper middle/upper class.

working class and upper class have far more in common than middle class

middle class will worry about taking thier shoes if

working class won’t car about taking their shoes off

upper class won’t worry about anyone taking their shoes off but won’t do it themselves

@ivykaty44 I've never come across this idea of shoes on and off. Why do people care either way?

@sunja People who have shoes-off households are usually concerned about hygiene or have cultural reasons. I’ve never met anyone IRL who minds if you take your shoes off but some MNers get very offended by the sight of feet, for some reason.

Gardens and plants. Who's got what where? This is an absolute class marker. Who's got a Lutyens bench in an arbour? Who's got a hot tub and AstroTurf? A pool? A swimming pool? A gardener? A gamekeeper? A zookeeper? Or just a groom? I haven't got a garden😀

@Chaoslatte that's so bizarre! I haven't seen that before. I always take my shoes off when I go to peoples houses but it's a sign of respect in my culture. My English friends expect it when I go to their houses though because of their carpets

In many countries it is considered horrifyingly rude to leave your shoes on when you go into someone else’s home. I actually think being shocked by someone taking their shoes off when they come to your house shows a lack of cultural awareness outside of UK norms (in other words, lack of cultural capital).

But I wasn't talking not about what a middle class person would do if they went to someone else's house, it's how they would feel about guest shoes on/off in their own house.

Sorry misread your post slightly. But still I think it would be reasonably clear whenever there might be specific cultural reasons for guests removing shoes.

Why do people care either way?

is that shoes or class your referring?

Just noticed I'd been tagged. Will catch up!