The country is a shit show - why is there so little mention of Brexit's role?

[Neonskytonight]

That's it really.

Surely all our woes can't be placed at the door of covid and war - it is a good political narrative, but is it really true?

I'm amazed how little questioning by the media and public there is about the role of Brexit.

Alexandra2001
Oh dear! have your standards fallen so low that you now don't even read the link you posted?

No - I did read the link. I still maintain that the most disadvantaged people in the UK probably did not even bother to vote in the referendum.

Stupid research

UK in a changing Europe describe themselves as "the authoritative source for independent research on UK-EU relations".

NatCen Social Research are "Britain’s largest independent social research organisation".

No wonder people don't trust "stupid" experts.

This widespread attitude that foreign languages and culture are 'posh' and 'not for us' is precisely why young people here are so cut off and have so few opportunities.

What possessed Tony Blair to remove the requirement to take a language at GCSE in 2004?

Parliamentary Briefing 2021
4.2 Participation by disadvantaged students
So far the only data on participation by disadvantaged groups of
students is up to 2013/14. When compared to the general student population 2013/14
Erasmus participants from the UK were:
• More likely to be white
• Around half as likely to be Black and around one-third as likely to be
Asian
• Slightly less likely to have a physical or mental disability
• More likely to be from ‘higher’ socio-economic backgrounds

It's not just about Erasmus. 3 of my cousins were au-pairs. It gave them the opportunity to move out, live in another country, for free😁 and save much needed money for university. And it was a world away from their council estates. I also know plenty of people who have worked in bars and clubs or as reps in the summer.

Young people from all backgrounds have been disadvantaged by the end of their right of FOM within the EU.

I find it baffling how the British media mostly say Brexit's awesome and then I read the news in other countries and, just today, read somewhere Brexit was responsible for a loss of over 30 billion euros to the British economy.
The UK's sponsoring the purchase of houses for people who can't afford one and it might fix petrol prices by throwing money at it too. So basically, taxes are sponsoring a heck of a lot of people. I wonder how far those taxes will go.
BTW is Dyson still moving to Singapore?

@Clavinova I think we can all agree that research into Brexit voting that only has 130 people in it, is likely to be flawed?
Especially when they come out out with comments such as "The English are feral....."
Is this a widespread view in your opinion?
It seems to be so in the Govt, with Tory Minister Heather Wheeler saying this yesterday “I was at a conference in Blackpool or Birmingham or somewhere godawful…”

So at least we know what the wealthy elite think of us and where we live..... and she an ardent Brexitier too.....

Anyway, since when did you become so pro brexit? i seem to recall you almost voted to remain... i know you support the Tories 100% but do you have any original thought left in you?

What will you do if Hunt becomes the next PM ?

I don’t understand the argument about Erasmus and let passports etc. Even if it were true that the working class
voted for Brexit because they didn’t benefit from those things, the working class just robbed the middle class to benefit the upper classes.

What is your point?

Erasmus participants were more likely to be white and middle class, so let's just completely rip it away from everyone?

You don't think it was good that working class kids and kids from minority ethnic backgrounds had a chance to do this stuff before?

Same here. I'm working class and was an au pair. It was one of the few ways I could live in another country as a teenager without needing wealthy parents. It opened up a whole new world for me and I saved a little bit of money from my wages that helped a lot during my first year of university. Of course it also did wonders for my language skills and I'm now using those in a well-paid job.

I'm one of the lucky ones - I have an EU passport through a European parent. Opportunities like this have now been ripped away from working class kids who aren't so lucky.

The Erasmus thing really winds me up. Erasmus enabled kids who would otherwise find it difficult to go abroad by giving them a grant. Middle class kids will always be able to find a way of doing this. It’s been taken away from the very people for whom it could have made a difference. The challenge ought to have been to promote Erasmus to as wide a range of people as possible, not to take it from everyone. And Erasmus does far more than student exchanges. Itenables school/ teaching exchanges as well, especially in poorer areas. It allowed international cooperation about language teaching, and we are the country most desperately in need of that.

Absolutely.

The Little Englander mentality is killing this country.

So many people seem to think Britain is still a respected, powerful country and that British people are all special and will be welcomed anywhere with open arms. It's utter delusion.

Who is going to be chosen for a STEM job in Geneva? A Brit who needs to be sponsored and only speaks English, forcing the entire team to speak English all the time? Or an Irish person with full right to work and passable French (I believe languages are still a requirement there)?

People who voted for Brexit seem to think things are going to go back to how they were 40 years ago. The world has moved on. Nobody is going to think you're special because you're British now, not even for roles where fluent English is a key requirement. There's an endless stream of Poles with excellent English and a great work ethic. The young Brits will just get left behind unless they're wealthy and connected enough to make it work. Kids who went to private schools and learned foreign languages will now be even more advantaged than before. UK-based jobs requiring foreign languages will now all go to European nationals with settled status because Brits won't have opportunities to live in the EU and learn or practise their languages.

Those Little Englanders who think freedom of movement and languages are for 'posh people' have screwed themselves over.

To be perfectly honest, why shouldn't middle-class kids also have the opportunity to study abroad and improve their language skills. If the number of students able to study in Europe is smaller, the number of UK cotize s proficient in other languages becomes smaller than it already is.Even if you've got pots of money (and even "middle class" stude TS don't generally have that much) the opportunity to live, work or study in Europe has been made much harder by the visa requirements. It's not something you can just throw money at and you'll be able to do it.

UK citizens that should say.

Completely agree artisan. Middle class kids should have those opportunities. I was challenging a view that Erasmus predominantly benefitted middle class kids, who are more likely to manage trips abroad without it than poorer kids.

..also think that people swallowed the BS of a point based immigration system... where we would attract the best and brightest.
But the system is so long winded, expensive and at the end of it you have to pay for health insurance and get low wages.. so people go to other EU countries or further afield.
Scientists applying to work in the UK are asking "is the UK going to be in Horizon?"
When told "don't know" they withdraw their application... this from the Crick institute.

EU funds *in enabling other vaccine work to continue) and EU scientists helped us produce the AZ vaccine, BJ's anti EU stance and tearing up the NI protocol is putting UK science at risk.

QuentininQuarantino
the working class just robbed the middle class to benefit the upper classes

pixie5121
Erasmus participants were more likely to be white and middle class, so let's just completely rip it away from everyone?

Plenty of study abroad opportunities here - Exeter and Bristol Universities for example:

www.exeter.ac.uk/studyabroad/outbound/research/where/
www.bristol.ac.uk/global-opportunities/go-abroad/fees-funding-and-scholarships/fees-funding-budgeting/year-abroad-funding/

Some stats from the new Turing Scheme -

Almost half (48.1%) of the placements approved for funding are for participants identified as coming from disadvantaged backgrounds.

www.turing-scheme.org.uk/funding-opportunities/funding-results/#:~:text=The%20outcomes%20of%20the%20first,training%20placements%20around%20the%20world.

But Clav - the Turing scheme is more expensive than Erasmus.

also, they can’t really work abroad either. I know you’ll claim they worked abroad before joining the EU, but as a recruiter in spain who specifically needs C2 level english speakers, i can tell you that it just isn’t worth our while to jump through hoops to get english kids when there are Irish ones who will do it. Or Farage’s kids of course, they’d be able to.

It's not just studying abroad though. I'm as working class as they come, grew up on benefits in one of the top ten most deprived areas of the country. My 'erasmus' was getting work as a hotel cleaner in Germany (zero language skills) then a bar and painter and decorator in France. So keep telling yourself the lie working class kids didn't benefit from FOM, if they wanted to, like me, they could, it didn't matter how poor or uneducated you were.

Brexit hasn't even stopped, much hated, immigrants coming here, it's just taken travel opportunities from our kids. And we didn't end FOM, EU citizens still enjoy this freedom, the only people we ended FOM for is ourselves.

Turing funding is less generous than Erasmus was and it’s actually been very difficult for students actually to get it. I speak from experience.

@Alexandra2001 yep - Im in the EU involved in a project (chemical research) with Cambridge Uni and we were fast approaching the deadline for submission of funding details, Cambridge stringing us along trying desperately to get answers from the govt who had vaguely promised to match funding but have so far been impossible to pin down now that it’s time for the funding to be given . They’ve had to withdraw from that project as the govt didn’t cough up.

"Who is going to be chosen for a STEM job in Geneva?"
I have no idea, maybe a Swiss applicant? What relevance does this have for the vast majority of British people? How many British people were ever going to be chosen for an STEM job in Geneva, even when we were in the EU? Should the country be run for a small minority of highly educated people or for the vast majority of people?

In another example of how Brexit is reducing job opportunities for working class British people, even INSIDE the UK. A friend of mine own a set building company in the UK, they build sets for film, TV and exhibitions. Lots of work is in Europe. He now only hires new builders, carpenters etc with EU passports because work permits for UK citizens is too much of a faff.

Biggest difference is that under Erasmus fees were waived, with Turing they not and this can add considerably to the cost.

Govt is hoping host Uni's will waive fees, not quite sure why they would do this.

Numbers applied for is not the same as numbers who will go, plus students still have to apply for and be eligible for visas.

Johnson promised (in Jan 2020) we would stay in Erasmus.

At prime minister’s questions on Wednesday, Boris Johnson downplayed fears. “There is no threat to the Erasmus scheme,” he told MPs. “UK students will continue to be able to enjoy the benefits of exchanges with our European friends and partners.”

...yet another lie.

Anyway, I don't know why we bother. Leave voters are immune to facts and would burn down their own house for Brexit.

If there was a benefit of brexit for the vast majority, then you might have a point but there is none.

Johnson now saying that pay freezes and indeed pay cuts are whats required...... which to be fair to him and the Tories, is exactly what they have tried to do since 2010, esp in the public sector... obviously "public sector" doesn't include MPs salaries nor their expenses.

Alexandra2001
@ Clavinova I think we can all agree that research into Brexit voting that only has 130 people in it, is likely to be flawed?

A bit worrying that NatCen also coordinated the UK’s participation in the European Social Survey - funded by the European Commission/Horizon.

Especially when they come out out with comments such as "The English are feral....."
One respondent from the West Midlands.

Do you have a link to any research to back up your claim here?
As for Brexit, as far as i can see the economically inactive and those on benefits [voted for Brexit] ... the majority of tax payers voted to Remain

A different study here (2,000 respondents);
A year since the vote to leave the European Union, new research at Teesside University has found that Brexit voters are more likely to describe themselves as middle class, educated and fed up, rather than angry and working class.

www.tees.ac.uk/sections/news/pressreleases_story.cfm?story_id=6578

Tory Minister Heather Wheeler saying this yesterday “I was at a conference in Blackpool or Birmingham or somewhere godawful…”

She reminds me of Labour MP Emily Thornberry and her 'white van man' gaffe.

i seem to recall you almost voted to remain

Almost - right up until the last second.

What will you do if Hunt becomes the next PM?

Worry that he lacks enough charisma to win the next election.