Page 17 | Ukraine Invasion: Part 25

MagicFox · 2022-05-12T07:18:00+00:00

Hi all, another thread for supporting and sharing

Ijsbear · 14/05/2022 19:57

Let's hope it collapses.

The new recruits that are being fielded (conscription, the recruitment taking place in the neighbouring oblasts to Ukraine, the forced induction of Donetsk and Luhansk men) can't be high quality though. Not enough training time.

BreadInCaptivity · 14/05/2022 20:05

MagicFox · 14/05/2022 19:27

Maybe (and I'm speaking from a place of ignorance here so happy to be corrected) our use of the terms 'west' and 'east' are defunct. If what we're seeing is actually a shift to democracies vs autocracies than the concept of what 'the west' means needs to be rethought. It's not 'the west' anymore. It's 'the west plus south korea et al).

Agree.

Excellent post.

blueshoes · 14/05/2022 20:25

notimagain · 14/05/2022 19:45

@blueshoes

In my non-military mindset, I don't understand why it has to be a long war. The longer we string this out for Ukraine, the longer they have to fight, lose more men and more civilian deportations and atrocities will occur in the meantime by Russian troops. It also enables Russia to colonise Kherson and other occupied territory with Russian settlors which will be doubly, triply difficult for Ukraine to remove without innocent bloodshed. A short sharp war with a well-armed Ukraine whilst they still have their men in numbers. Ukraine would not need NATO boots on the ground to do this, just NATO hardware, air and firepower.

I’m not sure anybody other than Russia or Ukraine has that much control over timescale.

Certainly short of NATO engaging with the Russians directly with it’s own forces it doesn’t have a “short war”/“long war” selector….

At the moment many NATO Member states are already supplying hardware (and so firepower). If by “air” you mean NATO air power then that would effectively be the equivalent of boots on the ground, if OTOH by “air” you mean simply supplying aircraft for the Ukraines to fly then that may happen at some point but it’s not something that can be done quickly (we also don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes).

We’re stuck with it either being a long war (some analysts POV), or a short war (some other analysts POV)…a lot will depend on how Russian troop morale stands up over the next few weeks and months.

notimagain, it is good to hear your military input.

You are right that it is not a two-speed war and NATO does not decide the speed.

I got a little spooked by the earlier post which quoted a Ukrainian lawmaker as saying that saying that the situation on the battlefield for Ukraine is "far worse" than it was at the beginning of the war and that "it is hell” on the frontlines right now and “we keep losing many more men now than it was at the beginning of the war.”

They called on the United States to provide air defense systems and fighter jets to Ukraine, including F16s. The US and presumably UK are already doing so much on the weapons-front. I wish the rest of NATO could do more and faster.

Hopefully things are happening behind the scenes.

I can barely read any more reports and personal accounts of atrocities, occupation, deportations and evacuations. Every day is more torture and brutality for Ukraine of an unspeakable kind.

I am not in anywhere like the people of Ukraine and have the untold luxury of being in the comfort and safety of my home but already starting to feel numb and blanking out despite people's stories needing to be heard.

DrBlackbird · 14/05/2022 20:52

They have also been working hard to extend their influence in Africa, giving loans eg for building infrastructure with high rates of interest and a fascinating clause that if the debtor defaults, the Chinese company can choose freely what and how big the penalty can be - and Beijing can lean on any and all companies to tell them what to demand

A friend who works on conflict minerals in supply chains says when he flies to the DRC that every other person on the plane is from China. All of our modern digital technology cannot be made without these rare minerals. China is way ahead of any other country on this one.

blueshoes · 14/05/2022 20:59

DrBlackbird · 14/05/2022 20:52

They have also been working hard to extend their influence in Africa, giving loans eg for building infrastructure with high rates of interest and a fascinating clause that if the debtor defaults, the Chinese company can choose freely what and how big the penalty can be - and Beijing can lean on any and all companies to tell them what to demand

A friend who works on conflict minerals in supply chains says when he flies to the DRC that every other person on the plane is from China. All of our modern digital technology cannot be made without these rare minerals. China is way ahead of any other country on this one.

It helps when working in certain regions to not have qualms about slave labour, corruption, money laundering, armed conflict, human rights abuses and other inconvenient Western concerns.

Igotjelly · 14/05/2022 21:07

I was following the Eurovision thread then opened this one by accident 😂 thought Eurovision had taken a really dark turn!

TargusEasting · 14/05/2022 21:08

MagicFox · 14/05/2022 19:27

Maybe (and I'm speaking from a place of ignorance here so happy to be corrected) our use of the terms 'west' and 'east' are defunct. If what we're seeing is actually a shift to democracies vs autocracies than the concept of what 'the west' means needs to be rethought. It's not 'the west' anymore. It's 'the west plus south korea et al).

I have posted this principle from the earliest threads.

For me it is about true democracies versus dictatorships and autocracies. Less than 30% of the world lives under true democracy. We should stop saying West v East. It feeds into the Putin and ISIS narrative.

I posted a Statistica I think map.

We should now be overt that this war is not With Russian people. It’s anti Kremlin and corrupt regimes which trample Human Rights. We ned to reach out (etc) to the next generation. Fold them in.

Sorry, this is in haste. Family issues today and I may not be back for a while.

Glory to 🇺🇦

JacquelineCarlyle · 14/05/2022 21:14

Checking in & I do agree with the East & West comments.

TheABC · 14/05/2022 21:15

Igotjelly · 14/05/2022 21:07

I was following the Eurovision thread then opened this one by accident 😂 thought Eurovision had taken a really dark turn!

Yep. Welcome to Nightmare Quarter where we stare down the horrors with humour, knowledge and a dash of gin.

BreadInCaptivity · 14/05/2022 21:17

Putin's not going to like "give peace a chance" with the colours of Ukraine over the venue!

Igotjelly · 14/05/2022 21:24

BreadInCaptivity · 14/05/2022 21:17

Putin's not going to like "give peace a chance" with the colours of Ukraine over the venue!

I was thinking this, it’s a massive fuck you to Putin and the Russians generally.

DrBlackbird · 14/05/2022 21:40

Unfortunately yes @blueshoes

@TargusEasting for your family issues. We’ll wait for your considered inputs until you can return.

Ijsbear · 14/05/2022 22:22

Take care @TargusEasting

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2022 23:14

FWIW the betting had the uK top for the jury vote. But only 4th for the public vote.

So don't get too carried away....

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2022 23:16

sorry wrong thread. I am drunk and carried away

Igotjelly · 14/05/2022 23:20

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2022 23:14

FWIW the betting had the uK top for the jury vote. But only 4th for the public vote.

So don't get too carried away....

On the topic of Eurovision.nothing for a Germany or France…… make of it what you will.

Igotjelly · 15/05/2022 00:03

FUCK YOU Putin! #Glory to Ukraine 🇺🇦

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 15/05/2022 00:10

СЛАВА УКРАЇНІ !

That was a memorable Eurovision. I am glad they won on the popular vote too.
Пу́тін — хуйло́

Igotjelly · 15/05/2022 00:13

It might only be a stupid song contest but I really hope it brings some people in Ukraine some happiness tonight.

L1ttledrummergirl · 15/05/2022 00:14

I am so pleased with that result.

Natsku · 15/05/2022 00:16

The public vote restored my confidence in Eurovision. The jury vote was getting me so pissed off. So happy for Ukraine.

Serbia was robbed though, should have scored higher.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 15/05/2022 00:22

Igotjelly · 15/05/2022 00:13

It might only be a stupid song contest but I really hope it brings some people in Ukraine some happiness tonight.

It was more than that this time though wasn’t it, it was a statement about peace.

QueenOfThorns · 15/05/2022 00:22

I think that the people of almost every one of those 40 countries must have voted Ukraine top for them to get that score. I hope all their governments take notice and keep up the support. Take that Pootin 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦

ScrollingLeaves · 15/05/2022 00:42

Can sleep now. I love the one with the patterns on his face, and the shaman like costumes. What special dancing too. The whole song and performance was altogether rich and imaginative. 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦👏👏

Serbia did way better with the public vote, @Natsku which redressed the balance somewhat. I did think they were unusual and excellent too, if odd.

blueshoes · 15/05/2022 00:45

QueenOfThorns · 15/05/2022 00:22

I think that the people of almost every one of those 40 countries must have voted Ukraine top for them to get that score. I hope all their governments take notice and keep up the support. Take that Pootin 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦

Amen to this