What America gets right about the abortion debate

[LesyaUkraina]

Interesting article in the Spectator today

www.google.com/amp/s/www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-america-gets-right-about-the-abortion-debate/amp

There’s also something I find very distasteful about a man finding it “sad” that a woman is proud to walk into an abortion clinic. I do think abortion might be sad for some people, potentially including me. Is it sad for a rape victim to have an unwanted foetus removed? Er, no. If the author finds it sad, he can have a vasectomy, use condoms or not have sex unless he wants a baby. Problem solved!

You might be 'pro-life' OP, that's fine and dandy. So if you ever have an unwanted pregnancy, you'll never need to decide whether or not to have an abortion.

You have no right, however, to tell anyone else that they must live their life according to your beliefs. That decision should be theirs, and theirs alone. That is what freedom of choice is all about.

Many people in the USA are utter hypocrites. They don't want to allow women to be able to choose whether or not to have an abortion, yet at the same time they insist that they have the right to bear arms. In other words, apparently it is fine to shoot someone dead, but not to end an unwanted pregnancy.

You cannot uphold the right to kill in one way, yet try to ban another.

If you're pro-life, that's completely up to you as is your right. Don't have an abortion - your choice.

However, it's absolutely cock all to do with you or anyone else what other women choose to do with their bodies.

That is their right and their choice.

I can't see how some of these states in the USA can think this is the way forward backwards - Gilead anyone?

The "pro-life" movement in America is a nonsense. if they really cared about the unborn babies then anti-natal care would be free for all, except it's not. But then it's a country where a member of the Supreme Court, in favour of making abortions, illegal views babies as nothing more than a commodity and women should be "forced to give birth" to their unwanted babies. Their anti-abortion stance is nothing to aspire to IMO

twitter.com/PaulCogan/status/1522700999525343233

@Catkitkat
But for once let’s discuss all the other 99.7% abortions too? If you were referring to rape or incest in your post? Can we also discuss what we think about the vast majority of abortions/unwanted pregnancies, which happen for entirely different reasons. If there is a discussion to be had, at least it should be balanced

So you think that abortion is killing a human.

But you're happy to kill a human if their parents are closely related to each other, or they were conceived through rape?

unplannedpregnancy.com/facing-an-unplanned-pregnancy/facts-about-unplanned-pregnancy/causes-of-unplanned-pregnancy/

This is US stats but will see if I can find any UK ones

The reason for the unwanted pregnancy is irrelevant. The women (only her) can decide whether or not to continue with the pregnancy.

And?

We all know sex education and access to contraception are dire in the US. Many of the young people mentioned on that site will not have used contraception because it is deliberately made hard to access and is expensive. I am 100% in favour of preventing unwanted pregnancy! However, the movements opposed to abortion are also those who do not want people to have access to contraception and good sex education.

It is not a coincidence that those countries that have the lowest abortion rates also have the best access to contraception, the best sex education and the best access to healthcare for women. We should be focusing on emulating what Scandinavian countries and places like the Netherlands are doing, not on following the American model of pushing abortion back underground, with all the horrific consequences that brings.

And the bottom line is that there is no 100% foolproof contraception, and so safe, legal abortion will always be needed. The alternatives are not acceptable.

Sure, we can talk about them. But you can't reasonably think "abortion is murder, but murder is ok in these special cases".

So if you think abortion is acceptable in some cases, even 0.3% of them, looks to me like you're also pro-choice. You just think only some people should get a choice about whether their body is used as an incubator for a baby they don't want and whether they are forced to give birth, with all the risks and damage that can arise from that.

And I don't see why where you draw that line should be given more weight than where someone else would.

(For the avoidance of doubt, I think there should be no line - everyone should have the right to choose what happens to their body. Forcing women to grow a baby they don't want to have, to feel it moving inside them, to give birth to it, that's monstrous. Even ignoring all the risks and side effects of pregnancy and giving birth. There are no circumstances I can think of in which it would be acceptable to make someone do that when they did not want to.)

so the only thing I am fearing is derision from people who don't know how to have sensible, respectful discussions.

The only sensible, respectful discussion to be had is that a women has the right to bodily autonomy and therefore should be free to choose whether or not she has an abortion. Abortion should be safely provided, without judgement and without any woman having to convince or give a reason to anyone else why she wants one. The end.

I find it really challenging when the devout/ deeply religious tell everyone else they have the upper hand when it comes to morality and know what's best for everyone.

No. No you don't.

Those people really should read their bibles. Their deity liked to have babies killed left, right and centre.

Yes, nothing like a genocide of all boys, 2 years old and younger, to really prove how "pro life" your religion is.

Why do you think it's OK to force a women, and in some instances a child, to continue a pregnancy they don't want?

How will you PERSONALLY help those mothers? How many of their bills will you pay, how much food will you buy them?

Because while your volunteer efforts are commendable, giving homeless people sleeping bags and food for a few hours isn't actually dealing with the problem. It's papering the cracks and doing little to give mums assistance for 18yrs to raise the baby you want to force on them...

Why do you think a fetus is more important than a living being?

Also, not all cases of abortion are because of lack of contraception. Mine was, but that was because my ex decided he didn't care that I wasn't on contraception after having our second, and he wanted sex... but it's well known that contraception fails.

Many women don't actually end up loving the baby either, I was a result of my mother not being able to terminate and my relationship with her non existent because she wouldn't hide her resentment of being forced (by her family) to have me.

We don't talk about the kids we resent, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

What about the morality of forcing a woman to have to choose between and illegal abortion and continuing an unwanted pregnancy?

You don’t want an abortion, fine, don’t have one, no one is saying you have to have one, no one is forcing you to have one, THAT would be immoral.

So why is it ok for you to impose your views on others?

It’s terrifying that people out there think that there is still a ‘debate’ to be had over this issue. I own my body. No one else. There is no debate. I would take to the streets to fight for this.

Well, the article is an opinion piece written by a white privileged middle aged American conservative male using his voice to be paternalistic and tell women that abortion is moral and therefore we should all think like he does. Nothing original in the article, just a self belief on his part that he's right - and that we've not thought about the basics that he's laid out for us in the article before.

Weird, it's like I have deja vu, almost as if 9 billion white middle aged privileged conservative males have also said the exact same thing before, yet they still keep getting given major mouthpieces to say this same stuff from.

All very Under His Eye OP.

I hate it when the deeply religious try to say god was pro life. I'm not sure they've even read the book as I bet the first born sons of Egypt, or Jobs children would have agreed with that. Or even the people who drowned when he flooded the world.
They need to learn religion should have absolutely no place in someone's body autonomy.

The reason why the argument, "if you don't like abortion don't have one" does not hold its that abortion is a moral issue. This is why it is hotly debated and why there are time limits. We do not get to decide whether it is okay for us to steal or murder or assault someone. Why should we get a personal day on whether we can end the life of a foetus.

The difficulty with that is that we do differentiate in terms of how we treat those events. Logically if there was an equivalence there should be a police investigation and an inquest every time someone has a miscarriage but, thank goodness, that doesn't happen. Indeed, logically there should be an inquiry every time someone takes the MAP.

Fairly obviously, we differentiate in terms of the foetus because, for it to develop into a baby, it requires someone else's body. @vdbfamily, your post reads as if you believe abortion shouldn't be available to rape victims. Is that correct?

I think OP is somehow connected to the article and wants to promote it as it's such an also ran in terms of content. We've seen it a million times before. And also the old 'i daren't say my views' line when the OP has just comfortably proclaimed their views clearly on here and the Spectator has just given prime time attention to it. Not convinced the OP is a woman either.

Those people really should read their bibles. Their deity liked to have babies killed left, right and centre.

Yep, all those first born sons that were sacrificed to prove the father's allegiance to God would take a rather different view on God's purported pro-life stance.

I'm pro the life of the woman and her right to decide how her body is used and no man's say or opinion on that is either wanted or needed, not his body, not his life so he can just fuck off.

‘We do not get to decide whether it is okay for us to steal or murder or assault someone. Why should we get [to decide] whether we can end the life of a foetus?’

Matters to do with things (eg crimes involving money or property) aren’t relevant or comparable.

Matters to do with people, eg crimes against people, involve people able to survive as humans independently of other humans. Except children or adults with health conditions or disabilities unable to live indpwndently, for whom there are public services to seek to improve or remove them from situations of neglect or abuse.

These matters have important differences from what is done to pregnant women, embryos and foetuses. Until (roughly) 24 weeks gestation or beyond, foetuses are wholly dependent on a woman’s body. Either she has bodily autonomy, including to end a pregnancy, or the state intervenes to seek to require her to continue the pregnancy and give birth.

It's an interesting first post for someone joining Mumsnet. Also the user name is somewhat ironic - Lesya Ukraina was actually a campaigner against autocracy and a believer in women's rights.

Well they haven't returned to the thread since yesterday lunchtime (12:54pm).

Perhaps they didn't enjoy hearing the opinions of the 'gentlewomen' of MN aka vipers?

Perhaps we were all supposed to acquiesce to the knowledgeable Pro-lifer, smile sweetly, and nod whilst our brains were washed?