What America gets right about the abortion debate

[LesyaUkraina]

Interesting article in the Spectator today

www.google.com/amp/s/www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-america-gets-right-about-the-abortion-debate/amp

OP, you are very welcome to your own views, as are we all.
It's very simple though, if you don't agree with abortion don't have an abortion, but obviously you don't to decide my, or other women's healthcare needs.
I will respect your decision, and I would expect you to respect others'

I regard safe, legal abortion as a necessary evil. The morality of it is worrying but in the same way as killing in wartime. Banning abortion is as wrongheaded as taking weapons away from your own frontline soldiers and hoping that will stop the war.

Polls show that the majority of women want the abortion limit to be lowered not liberalised

I've seen this mentioned before but I've never seen the actual poll. Can you provide a link, please? And there's a huge difference between thinking that maybe the abortion limit should be lowered to 20 weeks and thinking it should be at 6 weeks, even without taking into account the fact that women who choose abortion relatively late in their pregnancies are usually pretty desperate.

Oh my gosh! Op- did you not realise that you don't have to have an abortion? That it's entirely up to you? You don't have to use contraception either! Or have sex before marriage! You can be really pro life and no one will mind at all! That's brilliant isnt it?
And also , people who DO want an abortion an get one! Isn't it lovely that we can live according to our OWN moral code?

@Fere spot on 👏🏻👏🏻

If you don't want an abortion don't have one. But you do not get to make decisions over someone else's uterus. That is nothing to do with you. If you don't believe in women having autonomy on their own bodies, then you don't believe women should have more rights than a corpse.
Focus on your body and leave other peoples alone. If a friend told me they were pro life and wanted to ban abortion, I'd end the friendship. I could never be friends with someone who wants my body autonomy taken away.

How many unwanted babies will you be adopting/fostering?

How do you plan to help those mothers forced to give birth and raise an unwanted baby?

Why do you think forcing pregnancy/birth on a woman is ok?

Should we be forcing men to have vasectomies?

Exactly how "prolife" are you? Incest, rape, illness incompatible with life?

If you were pro-life you would be volunteering with the homeless, in soup kitchens, at food banks, you’d be donating all your time and money to parents who were struggling on the breadline. Any free time you’d be volunteering to coach youth groups and once you’d exhausted all other options you’d be campaigning for great maternity and paternity packages, universal healthcare, refugee rights, the list goes on.

But you’re not.

You’re not pro-life, you’re anti-choice.

And misogynistic.

Well that is your opinion OP. However your opinion has nothing to do with what I or any other woman chooses to do with our bodies. And the argument is not “shut down” , if you have anything more coherent in your anti abortion toolbox than “my opinion is ethically more sound than your opinion” then I and many others would be happy to debate it with you and have a sensible, respectful discussion.

I agree that it is possible to argue we are too liberal with abortion in this country. But America is heading down a path where a 14 year old who has been raped is forced to raise the child! Just let that sink in!

Yes we should have easier access to sterilisation, yes we should have easier access to contraception but sometimes things go wrong.

While we’re at it, we could start debating whether women should have the right to vote or own property, whether some races should be enslaved, whether poor children should be put to work in workhouses etc.

All of these were once moral debates. They are thankfully settled - so is abortion in this country. As others have said, if you don’t agree with abortion, don’t have one. But if you’re using legal/political turmoil in another country to justify your stance on this you should expect the kind of reaction you’ve received. The US pro life movement has nothing to do with the rights of the unborn child and everything to do with controlling women and their bodies. It’s not a positive development and not a worthy debate.

OK, so how about we open a debate upon Eugenics and compulsory sterilisation of those who are deemed less suitable to father children? Or abolishing the provisions of The Suicide Act 1961 so that somebody in that desperate, unhappy situation is again criminalised for acting to end their own life, so is more likely to avoid seeking help whilst also being doubly certain to make sure that they complete it first time? Shall we also discuss bringing back bear baiting, cock fighting, shooting endangered animals for trophies or culinary delicacies?

After all, it would be a bad sign if society refused to listen to those who hold those views, wouldn't it?

@LesyaUkraina - happy for you to be pro life but that’s your choice and should not be mandated on others. I’m 100% pro choice - in every circumstance. A woman should be free to make decisions about her own body and no one else should be able to determine what she should do. If the US overturn Roe v Wade, a huge set back for women and it will just mean more illegal abortions and the expense of travelling out of state or over the border.

Perhaps the law should make it mandatory for men to have a vasectomy !

I think there is debate in this country, but little in mainstream politics as all parties know there is strong public support for abortion so it's not something they need to give time and energy to. Most of the American public support its availability too, but in the US the Christian right has a much stronger voice, hence its wider discussion there.

Glass houses and all that.

If they venture an opinion, they are shouted down very firmly.

Well he certainly got that right !.

How are we too liberal? Do you think the current law is exploited? If so, in what way?

I am pro-life, and I am ashamed to admit that in real life I would be very, very careful about voicing my opinion for pure fear of being sworn at, mocked and blacklisted by institutions and even acquaintances. The article has given me some courage to be more confident in not staying silent on the topic within my own circles

@LesyaUkraina are you an activist? Do you campaign?

I am wondering why institutions and acquaintances have such a strong reaction to your beliefs?

Poor you op, imagine wanting to use your bodily autonomy to speak about your pro gestational slavery stance and you're worried that someone might be mean to you so you can't.

Really, really sad for you.

"too liberal" - what does that mean in this instance?

I don't mind ppl dissing USA on facts, but I dislike distortion.

A country with virtually no welfare system.

My nieces & nephew were raised by "welfare" moms. There is definitely a welfare system in USA. It's more generous if you're Cuban, but not non-existent for all others.

A country that has people working for slave wages because it won’t implement a minimum wage.

Does PP mean a national min. wage? Coz I was paid > state min. wage when I entered American workforce at age 15 in the 1980s. It's UK that I found bizarrely didn't have one then.

I read a long thread yesterday about ectopic pregnancies last night, where the zero tolerance anti-abortion attitude puts women in that terrible situation. Anyway, there are literally dozens of ways that the most ardent pro-lifers don't give a crap about protecting children. "It was never about protecting life and babies" is a common refrain in the pro-choice movement.

I think the article makes a very good point that the debate has pretty much been shut down in the UK, which is worrying as it is never a good sign when only one side are allowed to voice their opinions.

Wrong. There is no need for other people to debate it. The only people who should be able to have a say are those involved or those who believe that it should be up to those involved.. YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO FORCE A WOMAN TO CONTINUE A PREGNANCY. End of.

Let me ask you this OP. As a "pro-lifer", do you campaign or even share articles in favour of organ donation against the deceased's wishes? Think of all those already living people who are suffering from various ailments and organ failures that could live on thanks to a new donated organ. Does it matter that the donor doesn't wish for their body to be harvested after death? What if their religion forbids desecration of their dead body? We should still do it, right? Let's not let a corpse have more rights than a living, breathing woman.

I think the article makes a very good point that the debate has pretty much been shut down in the UK, which is worrying as it is never a good sign when only one side are allowed to voice their opinions

As PP has pointed out there are plenty of issues which in the past were up for debate , where it has now been long-accepted that one stance was definitively wrong: women's suffrage, apartheid, sending all disabled children to live in institutions. Abortion falls in this same category - quite rightly it is almost unheard of in this country to even suggest that women should not have the right of choice. It is perfectly acceptable for a woman to have a pro-life view in relation to her own body but the idea of forcing pregnancy on a woman is as abhorrent as the idea of forcing abortion on women. Would it be ok to have a debate about that issue?

I prefer the UK tbh. I think it’s good there is no real ‘debate’, because woman's private medical decisions should not be up for debate