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What America gets right about the abortion debate

138 replies

LesyaUkraina · 06/05/2022 23:26

Interesting article in the Spectator today

www.google.com/amp/s/www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-america-gets-right-about-the-abortion-debate/amp

OP posts:
PermanentTemporary · 07/05/2022 16:31

Vdbfamily I just don't agree with you. On any of that. I think your facts are wrong, and I don't agree with your moral opinion. We are starting from completely different viewpoints. Why should I have to live my life according to your views?

whumpthereitis · 07/05/2022 16:35

Oh, and unsafe abortion is also a leading cause of death for women in countries where abortion is illegal. So no, women don’t just go on to have and ‘love their babies’.

On a personal note, I’ve had an abortion. If it had been illegal, would that have stopped me from getting one? No.

FieryPitOfMordor · 07/05/2022 16:36

vdbfamily · 07/05/2022 16:26

But morally, why is the woman's life more important. In the majority of pregnancys that end in abortion, the couple had a choice and chose not to use contraception. In the vast majority of cases, if abortion was not readily available, the woman would go on to have and love that baby. The numbers of abortions , now they are easy to access, are way higher than the numbers of illegal abortions because abortion itself has for many been minimised to the equivalent of having a tooth removed.
Ending the life of a human foetus is as immoral if not more so than forcing a woman to carry to term.
Accepting one thing is immoral does not mean another thing is not also immoral.

Everyone should have the right to decide what happens with their own bodies at any point. If a woman doesn’t want to continue having a foetus in her own body, she shouldn’t be forced to. If the foetus can’t survive on its own, then what alternative is there to abortion?

I actually differ from “pure” pro choice people about late term abortion but at ANY point a woman must be free to decide she doesn’t want a pregnancy to continue, whether that is through abortion or early live birth.

Parker231 · 07/05/2022 16:36

@vdbfamily - why should the women have a baby if she doesn’t want to - regardless of the reason she ended up pregnant?
She may not be able to afford it, too much stress in her life, health complications- the reason isn’t relevant. It’s 100% her choice.

I’ll like all the useless Dad’s to have mandatory vasectomies. All those who don’t provide for their children when the relationship ends, those who don’t care for their partner when she’s pregnant, those who don’t get up in the night to care for their baby, won’t cook or clean after them, change nappies, take time off work when they are sick etc.

Gynaesaur · 07/05/2022 16:36

A large problem in trying to debate abortion is that the pro life argument often boils down to "It makes me uncomfortable/God says no, therefore no one should be allowed to do it."

Disliking something is generally a good reason not to do something yourself, but not to prevent other people from doing it unless you can show that it really would make their lives better/safer etc. And, to the apparent chagrin of "pro-lifers", there isn't sufficient evidence to show that banning abortion is an improvement for anyone except themselves. A small minority (5% IIRC) of women regret having an abortion. For the remainder, it has prevented them having children they cannot afford to raise or would be unable to raise in a safe environment or who they just have no desire to have. Societally, it means fewer children born into poverty, fewer women tied to abusive husbands through children, fewer women left disabled or chronically injured from pregnancy and birth, fewer women dead through illegal abortions, fewer children born to incapable or unwilling parents. The knock on effects of these are massive and overwhelmingly positive.

It's a free country. People can argue that they don't like it/God doesn't like it/ think of the poor ickle zygotes all they like. But in a country with neither a strong authoritarian bent and desire to repopulate, or a strong religious persuasion, they aren't going to be taken very seriously because their arguments lack substance.

TedMullins · 07/05/2022 16:39

Abortion is not a moral issue. It’s a healthcare procedure and it’s about bodily autonomy. Religion should never influence public policy and you’re welcome to not like or want an abortion for yourself, but no, pro life views do not deserve any recognition or airtime when it comes to governance and policy.

WeDontShutUpAboutBruno · 07/05/2022 16:40

vdbfamily · 07/05/2022 16:26

But morally, why is the woman's life more important. In the majority of pregnancys that end in abortion, the couple had a choice and chose not to use contraception. In the vast majority of cases, if abortion was not readily available, the woman would go on to have and love that baby. The numbers of abortions , now they are easy to access, are way higher than the numbers of illegal abortions because abortion itself has for many been minimised to the equivalent of having a tooth removed.
Ending the life of a human foetus is as immoral if not more so than forcing a woman to carry to term.
Accepting one thing is immoral does not mean another thing is not also immoral.

Because the woman is a living, breathing person with autonomy. She doesn't require the use of anyone else's body to survive. Should we be forced to be living donors for people who need kidneys, maybe a lung, a bit of liver? No we shouldn't because our lives and bodies are our own and we aren't obliged to use our bodies for the sake of anyone else.

The majority of women who had an abortion would have gone on to love a baby resulting from an unwanted pregnancy? Where are the studies for this? I'm bloody sure I wouldn't have coped with another baby and the kids I already had would also have suffered. But its ok because proforced birthers want the warm and fuzziness from 'saving babies' that they don't give a fuck about as soon as they are born.

Almost every forced birther I have ever spoken to has given the exception of rape cases, which proves that they don't care about the foetus at all, they want women to be punished for enjoying sex, we shouldn't have to be violated to gain rights to our own bodies.

FixItUpChappie · 07/05/2022 16:42

In the vast majority of cases, if abortion was not readily available, the woman would go on to have and love that baby.

This is just incredibly naive. I work with women living in poverty, struggling with addiction, struggling with mental health. Not everyone is in a physical, mental or even organic brain level place to love and care for a baby. If your rose colored glasses extend to "well, someone will adopt them"....I could write a thesis on the realities of that statement.

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 07/05/2022 16:48

whumpthereitis · 07/05/2022 16:35

Oh, and unsafe abortion is also a leading cause of death for women in countries where abortion is illegal. So no, women don’t just go on to have and ‘love their babies’.

On a personal note, I’ve had an abortion. If it had been illegal, would that have stopped me from getting one? No.

Same. I wouldn't have gone on to love the baby. I would have still found a way to abort. I did not want a baby. My life was more important than the foetus. Because I was the one alive. The foetus could not survive on its own so it had no body autonomy. A foetus has body autonomy once born and it can survive without being in someone else's body.

Luculentus · 07/05/2022 16:50

I believe the pro-life argument is ethically much more sound than the pro-abortion one

Was it ethically more sound when it was applied in relation to Savita Halappanavar?

Loopytiles · 07/05/2022 16:54

Forcing women to continue pregnancy and give birth isn’t ‘ethically sound’

pointythings · 07/05/2022 16:55

In the majority of pregnancys that end in abortion, the couple had a choice and chose not to use contraception.

Evidence of this?

The numbers of abortions , now they are easy to access, are way higher than the numbers of illegal abortions

Well yes, because taking the decision not to continue an unwanted pregnancy is a bit easier when you know you aren't risking your life. Not dying of an illegal abortion is a good thing - unless you think women deserve it?

ThatLibraryMiss · 07/05/2022 16:57

In the majority of pregnancys that end in abortion, the couple had a choice and chose not to use contraception.

Do you have a source for that assertion?

In the vast majority of cases, if abortion was not readily available, the woman would go on to have and love that baby.

And that one? I ask because of a working paper from the National Bureau of Economic Research that suggests that “unwanted children are at an elevated risk for less favorable life outcomes on multiple dimensions, including criminal involvement, and the legalization of abortion appears to have dramatically reduced the number of unwanted births” and that "crime fell roughly 20% between 1997 and 2014 due to legalized abortion". My source: www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w25863/w25863.pdf

UnshakenNeedsStirring · 07/05/2022 17:03

America gets nothing right. Morally defunct country

MrsTerryPratchett · 07/05/2022 17:20

I used to be in a program that supported young (really very young in many cases) mums with housing, support and care from first trimester to birth and beyond. Basically a volunteer family would take in a girl and her baby for a year. I did it several times, really enjoyed it.

We used to meet as families and notably NOT ONE of the support families was pro-forced-birth. Not one. Firstly, we clearly weren't 'pro-abortion' because we were facilitating these mums. And second, where were the pro-forced-birthers? Either they didn't give a tiny shit to support these mums who actually needed support to carry, birth and raise their babies. Or, there are so vanishingly few pro-forced-birthers that statistically, they weren't available.

The families had wildly different views on all sorts of things, abortion wasn't one of them.

vdbfamily · 07/05/2022 17:35

@PermanentTemporary you do not have to do anything according to my views, you have to follow the laws of where you live. The reason we have laws about abortion is because it IS a moral issue.

MrsTerryPratchett · 07/05/2022 17:42

vdbfamily · 07/05/2022 17:35

@PermanentTemporary you do not have to do anything according to my views, you have to follow the laws of where you live. The reason we have laws about abortion is because it IS a moral issue.

Do you think we only legislate moral issues?

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 07/05/2022 17:43

vdbfamily · 07/05/2022 17:35

@PermanentTemporary you do not have to do anything according to my views, you have to follow the laws of where you live. The reason we have laws about abortion is because it IS a moral issue.

The reason we have laws is because people feel its their right to get involved in others healthcare. It is not your business what another woman does with her body. Your feelings are completely and utterly irrelevant

Catkitkat · 07/05/2022 17:52

MumInBrussels · 07/05/2022 13:02

I'm going to try to be polite, OP, but how can you say the pro-life argument is more ethically sound when it would logically mean sexually abused children being forced to remain pregnant and give birth?

But for once let’s discuss all the other 99.7% abortions too? If you were referring to rape or incest in your post? Can we also discuss what we think about the vast majority of abortions/unwanted pregnancies, which happen for entirely different reasons. If there is a discussion to be had, at least it should be balanced

Catkitkat · 07/05/2022 17:54

TedMullins · 07/05/2022 16:39

Abortion is not a moral issue. It’s a healthcare procedure and it’s about bodily autonomy. Religion should never influence public policy and you’re welcome to not like or want an abortion for yourself, but no, pro life views do not deserve any recognition or airtime when it comes to governance and policy.

What about ethics? Do you not think that ethics are at the core of our legislation, particularly when it comes to medical law? Of course these considerations have a place when it comes to governance and politics

MrsTerryPratchett · 07/05/2022 17:55

If there is a discussion to be had, at least it should be balanced

No. It's not a discussion and it's not balanced. In the same way equal marriage isn't. My rights aren't debatable. Very obviously none of us are forcing someone to have an abortion. That would be 'balanced'. Women are still free to choose not to have one for them.

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 07/05/2022 17:57

There should never be a discussion because women are entitled to body autonomy. That should never be up for discussion.

sjxoxo · 07/05/2022 17:57

LesyaUkraina · 07/05/2022 12:54

I think the article makes a very good point that the debate has pretty much been shut down in the UK, which is worrying as it is never a good sign when only one side are allowed to voice their opinions. It is
concerning when a country can no longer have healthy, open discussions about serious moral issues like abortion, as such issues require serious thought and nuanced, civilised discussion. Polls show that the majority of women want the abortion limit to be lowered not liberalised, but the public space is so dominated by well-funded activists and academics that we never actually hear from ordinary people with opposing views, beyond the confines of a few online forums (although even these are often very hostile to such discussions). I am pro-life, and I am ashamed to admit that in real life I would be very, very careful about voicing my opinion for pure fear of being sworn at, mocked and blacklisted by institutions and even acquaintances. The article has given me some courage to be more confident in not staying silent on the topic within my own circles. I believe the pro-life argument is ethically much more sound than the pro-abortion one, so the only thing I am fearing is derision from people who don't know how to have sensible, respectful discussions.

I absolutely disagree with you - this issue shouldn’t be debated & there shouldn’t be two sides. There shouldn’t be two sides, and no, there shouldn’t be two sides heard x

MadameCholetsDirtySecret · 07/05/2022 17:58

There is no debate. If a woman or girl wants or needs an abortion, she has one.

Gynaesaur · 07/05/2022 17:59

But for once let’s discuss all the other 99.7% abortions too? If you were referring to rape or incest in your post? Can we also discuss what we think about the vast majority of abortions/unwanted pregnancies, which happen for entirely different reasons. If there is a discussion to be had, at least it should be balanced

Of course. Go on then- you quite obviously have something to say on the matter. How many of those women would be better off without safe access to abortion?

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